How Coaching Helped Zoe Master Pricing, Pivoting, and Hiring: Transcript

The unedited podcast transcript for this episode of the Mastering the business of Interior Design: Success by Design follows

Katie (00:01.378)

Hey everybody, welcome to today's show. And I am so excited to have with you Zoe Brown. And if you're going Zoe Brown, I haven't heard of that designer. I would say yet because Zoe is one of my coaching clients and I wanted to bring her on the show because I think so often times we think that we have to be either failing in business or really struggling in business or uncertain about our business to come to coaching and come to someone else and say, hey,

I want to do this. What do you think? Or I am working through this or this is my goal and it's completely positive. How do I get there? And having people just in life in general journey with you I think is so important, but especially in your business. without further ado, Zoe, welcome to the show.

Zoe (00:44.258)

Thank you, Katie, for having me. Thank you.

Katie (00:46.092)

I'm so excited that you're here and tell us like when, how did you come to even find me? Let's just start there.

Zoe (00:53.614)

So, yes, excellent question because I did the same course that you did with Jason Bemis, the International Association of Colour Consultants. So I came across your name because they spoke so highly of you and what you'd gone on to do and be so successful. I was like, who is this mystical creature? when you just keep your name just kept popping up.

And actually the lady that I was studying with had been in contact with you before she'd done the course. So you were kind of there in the background this whole time. And after I'd completed the course, I was looking at your website and I realized then that you did coaching and obviously you'd done so well. I just liked your style. And that was the point that I thought, maybe I'll reach out to Katie and maybe something we can learn from each other. I'm not sure. So that was the first point at which I discovered you.

Katie (01:42.851)

Totally.

Katie (01:46.808)

which I'm so glad you did, because you have been, we have had more fun together and I think we've solved more together. Tell me about where your business was at when we started and where it is at now.

Zoe (01:56.748)

Mm-hmm.

Zoe (02:01.836)

Okay, so that's a big one because when I came to you, yeah, when I came to you, I was purely focused on colour. And I had this plan that, you know, I would, it would just be colour consulting. I wasn't, it's funny because actually a very long time ago, way, way back in the midst of time when I graduated, you know, I thought about going into interior design. was something that I've enjoyed, you know, that I kind of just poured over magazines and actually did a stint.

Katie (02:03.916)

Yeah, take your time.

Zoe (02:31.197)

at the Homes and Gardens magazine in London, I was just an intern. you know, kind of was interested in that space, but for whatever reason, you know, life happened and I went off doing other things. So anyway, sort of after divorce and, you know, sort of big life events for me, I'd been a copywriter for decades at this point, but I was definitely ready for a change. And I thought that, you know, everything else is on fire currently. So why not think about, you know, really committing to that original dream. And so

Yeah, so I thought, but this was manageable. I couldn't see myself necessarily going back to college full time. But so this course was great. The great introduction. just felt good. was fun. The people were amazing. And so anyway, so that's why I was focused on colour. And really in a very short space of time, Katie, as you know, that we, had financial goals that...

Katie (03:22.178)

which you should and every designer and especially woman should.

Zoe (03:26.504)

Yeah, yeah, I thought, you know, I've got to pay the bills here. can't, it can't be a lifestyle business for me. And pretty quickly, you know, you were great because you like upright, upfront said, no, you're just not going to make the money doing that. Not the money that you want to make. So, you know, that in itself was worth its weight in gold really, because then I had to go on that little journey to get comfortable with this new idea of being full service in interior design.

what that meant for me. I had to find a way to emotionally connect with that and get over the mild terror that suddenly been planted. I oh, this is much bigger than I thought it would be originally. So already it's grown in shape. So although nothing tangible, nothing physical has happened yet, it's of really internal. That emotional state has definitely been a big change and it feels, now I've got used to the idea, it just feels like the right thing to do. Lots to learn, but great, I'm excited.

Katie (04:14.062)

Mmm.

Katie (04:25.112)

but you're doing it. And I think that's such an interesting point, is it has become internal and the feelings that go along with that. I think there's so many designers listening who totally have the eye and the ability. It's getting over themselves in a way and getting out of your own way to be able to say, I have this passion. I know I have the ability. Now how do we do the how? Right?

And that's, think where a coach could be so instrumental because it is the list of things. is the walking along on the journey to get you up running, functioning, or maybe reinventing your business in a different way. kind of like you did even before you were fully out of the gate, it was that aha moment of we need to switch this up a bit. Let's talk about other aha moments we've had together. Cause I know there's been a few of them. What else stands out to you as an aha moment that you're like,

Zoe (05:04.21)

Absolutely.

Katie (05:19.15)

I'm glad we're doing this because I didn't see that.

Zoe (05:23.399)

Yes, okay, so I think this has been the value I think of working with you as an interior design coach specifically rather than a general business coach, you you being in this space, making your own mistakes, I'm sure and seeing other people make the same mistakes, you know, you've been able to, you know, to help me sidestep some of those big ones, you know, like, I don't know.

Katie (05:33.07)

Hmm.

Katie (05:39.288)

for sure.

Zoe (05:48.055)

insurance, for example, talking about that sort of thing upfront. You I don't think I would have got there as quickly and I would have been exposed, you know, without realizing it and probably, you know, everybody's on a budget when they're starting a business and you're trying not to spend too much money, you know, but there are some things that you've got to cover yourself with. And I think that was a really important moment for me to, don't know, this probably doesn't sound right, but I wanted to take it seriously, you know, to really think, okay, now this is a proper business.

Katie (06:12.622)

I think that's a great way to put it. Yes.

Zoe (06:16.288)

And to see myself in that light too. I think that was part of the transition from colour consultant and I had a little bit of a daydream there, but actually, no, this is serious. You can be liable here, right? So let's make sure you're covered, you're safe, and then you can operate knowing that that protection is in place. You can concentrate on all the other bits and feel confident. So that was a big deal. think that part of that is being able to...

being introduced to your network of people and starting to get familiar with the support that's out there. Because I think as a new business owner, you just feel so very alone and that's part of the great thing with working with a coach. But it's beyond that, it's all the other people that you're going to need. And I didn't realize that. I didn't have to know everything. That there are people out there who've been doing this for years and it's great. They've got you covered. So that was, I think, the defining moment of

Katie (06:56.622)

Hmm.

Katie (07:05.004)

Not at all.

Zoe (07:13.867)

me thinking, look, I might be able to do this. So that was great from a confidence perspective.

Katie (07:19.126)

And you are doing it. And I think what's so interesting too is

that interchange that happens with every piece that you build into your business. It also builds a piece of you and that I am a business owner. I do have an insurance policy. I have a contract. I am now building processes both for marketing and for my clients. And like we were talking about last week, something as simple as a welcome packet. What does that look like? What tone does that set? How do we create those boundaries? All of that starts reinventing you in a way as

I am actually the CEO of this thing and I can choose how to run it and I can set my goals. can set my boundaries and it starts to imprint upon you, which I think is such a cool thing.

Zoe (08:00.9)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. think in those bite, taking it in bite-sized chunks, which has been great, you you just take away that I would be prone to possibly getting caught in a loop of not really fully understanding how to fix a problem and then dwelling on it and getting completely distracted. know, whereas I think quite aside from the accountability side of things, working with a coach, I think there's that, listen, just calm down. We don't need to panic here. Here's just step one. Let's get that done in the bag. You know, I think it just makes you feel like you're.

Katie (08:14.414)

Absolutely.

Zoe (08:30.999)

for me at least, it makes me feel like I can just take things at bite-size pieces. I don't have to get overwhelmed by everything. yeah. So.

Katie (08:39.628)

You don't at all. And that's my favorite part of our monthly coaching packages is the ability to really walk the journey with someone. Because sometimes those hiccups just happen. Sometimes they're personal, whether you get sick or life happens. And sometimes they're just emotional of like, I just am not feeling this. Well, let's talk about why we aren't feeling that. Or I don't want to go.

the direction over here. I want to go over here instead. Great. Let's get you reconfigured over there. Like having someone just to go on that journey with any journey with a friend is better in life.

Zoe (09:11.007)

Absolutely, yes.

Katie (09:12.226)

I just feel like the older I get, the more I appreciate finding people to come a wrong side and around, which to your point about like sharing the Rolodex, like that's my favorite thing is to be like, you should connect with this person and this person and I'll make the introduction to this person because it is such a great community. And I think there's so many people who really want to see our industry succeed and see the people in it succeed. And that's a really beautiful thing.

Surprises. Is there anything you were surprised about that I didn't see that coming when I signed up for this?

Zoe (09:44.226)

Well I think initially the transition to the full service was a big one but

Katie (09:47.938)

Yeah.

Zoe (09:53.281)

The surprises, think, from our 15, when we had our little 15 minute chat, we had that exploratory conversation before we signed up to anything. And I think the biggest surprise to me was actually how grounded you are and how you've been very successful, but you're very human and relatable and fun. I thought, actually it was a surprise that this could be invigorating to some degree, having these conversations and.

Katie (10:10.318)

Hmm.

Katie (10:18.657)

Mmm.

Zoe (10:21.118)

I mean, you referred to having a week down if you're ill or something, and I did a couple of weeks ago, got myself into a state thinking, all this stuff's piling up now in the background. But actually, was, so the big surprise for me, funnily enough, has been that emotional component, having the conversation of, I don't know, it be about anything, right? I think it's just that genuine friendship growing and that relationship building, which I think also relates to the point that you were just making about

Katie (10:37.509)

Mm.

Katie (10:44.622)

Hmm.

Mm.

Zoe (10:51.144)

it surprised me how supportive and collaborative the industry is. It's sort of opening up slowly because I'm new to it, but actually everybody I've spoken to, everybody you've put me in touch with or people that I've just gone out and contacted on my own, then everybody just seems to be interested and, you know, well, what's your angle or wanting to support each other. So that has been a big learning curve for me because I think my perception from the outside was not that necessarily of that industry. So, yeah.

Katie (11:21.1)

I can very much relate to that. mean, even 20 years ago, I was so intimidated and so scared of just.

They all seem to have it all together and they create these really illustrious, beautiful, big spaces. And who am I? and getting over that and just saying, no, like get after it, go figure it out. Find people who know more than you do pony up to them. It's such a great, like there is no shame in that at all. I always jokingly say, especially when it comes to our firm, I love hiring people so much smarter and so much more capable than me and letting them run and turning them loose to do it. That's like the best thing in the world.

If there's a designer out there listening today and they're thinking I hear you Zoe but I'm absolutely petrified there's a bunch of different interior design coaches what am I supposed to do where do I go what would you say to them?

Zoe (12:17.846)

Well, I think that so much of this, in my view, having it now gone on this journey with you, it would appear to me that it's really a chemistry thing, first and foremost. You know, you've got to be able to have a relationship with that person, be able to share. It's quite an intimate thing, I think, you know, going through all the terrors that inevitably happen when you're starting a business and you're, you know, you're spending a bit of money and you're really putting, you're investing in yourself and putting some faith in yourself. And that's not always comfortable.

Katie (12:27.137)

I agree.

Katie (12:37.294)

You

Zoe (12:46.685)

So I think when you're working with or looking to work with a coach, would think, you know, probably do your homework, find somebody who's a good fit for you. I think for me, I think it was the fact that you'd been, you know, that you'd done so much. It just sort of resonated with me that you've been through the course that I had. So you had the understanding of where I was coming from, right from the get go. But you had this really good combination of, you know, practical advice and support.

Katie (12:46.958)

for sure.

Katie (13:07.276)

Hmm.

Zoe (13:16.604)

But it was just compassionate too. It wasn't just pure numbers. I mean, that's great, numbers processes. We've all got to do that and we're trying to get somewhere and achieve something. I think that was, yeah, so that chemistry was really important to me. And it is a leap of faith, isn't it? It's not the cheapest thing. You're spending money. But I do think there's also, there's value in working with really good people. So I don't think if you're going to spend some money and work with a coach,

Katie (13:20.238)

Hmm.

Katie (13:30.435)

Yeah.

Zoe (13:45.563)

think work with a really good one. I wouldn't want to spend less and not get all this out of it. I mean, there's been so much, it's probably paid for itself already in so many ways, even from the insurance perspective, and just good connections or figuring out what to spend, what to prioritize financially and what to just put on hold for a minute. yeah, so I think chemistry and also, yeah, you get what you pay for to some degree, I think with that too.

Katie (13:54.446)

Hmm.

Katie (14:14.592)

I love that. And I think you're dead on about chemistry and as coaches, we feel that too. Like we want to connect with our clients and we want to see you succeed. So that is, there's a huge amount of trust that goes into that. It has to be mutual trust and like.

I love what you said about compassion because like at the end of the day, we're all human and we all have big feelings and some bigger than others. Right. And somehow we have to figure out how do we make this work? Which is why we always talk about like, how do we build a business that fits where you're at both financially and logistically? Cause I think that's so incredibly important that you have that business that really works for you rather than you working for it. I mean, that is my mantra. Otherwise, what are we doing out here? Like we can go find a job somewhere else. Right. so how do we create something?

that's really sustainable. And I love what you said about doing research. Like when it comes to find a coach who's in active in the industry, like find someone who's actively participating, who's designing, who's in the space, who knows what it looks like to be dealing with tariffs right now, or what's the latest from installers or has walked in that space personally. Because I think that there's just stuff you learn on the ground. There's hard life lessons, mistakes. I've made plenty of them that you

learn the hard way and having a coach that's done that ahead of you, game changer. And I speak as someone who has been coached. That's my favorite type of coach is someone who's already been out there and like been like, I can report back. That's not a good idea. And you're like, who knew? You know?

Zoe (15:35.929)

us.

Zoe (15:41.017)

I was going to ask you actually about that, whether you'd had a mentor because we don't think we'd ever discussed that during our chat.

Katie (15:47.714)

Yes, I've had so many different mentors throughout my life and I look at each of them like probably like a color. You know, they each are a different hue. They have a different vibrance to them. They but when combined, it creates a really beautiful picture. And so.

All the way back to when I was an undergraduate, I had an LA attorney who had retired to where I was going to school, who was fabulous. And he really taught me legal and taught contracts and taught, have you thought about this? And basic things like even contract negotiations, who names price first? Those types of concepts, right? And then the year that we grew, Hugh Josephur, I absolutely had a coach and she was great. And she's like, do you have processes? I'm like, I don't know. I mean, kind of, yeah.

True total true story and I was like, and now I look back and I'm like, my gosh I can't believe I even remotely attempted that without this level of processes We have now like that would have like it's a miracle that we did not crash and burn Like that should have been a total dumpster fire and it wasn't because we got a great operations person on board right away and said help Put the wheels on this bus, right? So back to like building that tribe of people and finding the people that are brighter sparner more capable like

Zoe (16:58.302)

laughs

Katie (17:05.952)

As far as coaches, mentors on your team. and I think too, it's been interesting just in the last two weeks, I've had two coaching clients that for the first time have been like, you mean, don't have to hire a full-time employee because that's one of the, my questions we get all the time as coaches is like, I'm going to make my first hire. Who should it be? And it said with fear and trepidation, right? Like, I'm like, you don't have to bring on a full-time employee and pay all their social security and pay. Let's just start. What is your actual need?

And then there, we can find contractors. We can find wonderful people who will come in and do the work where you don't have to take on the burden of, my gosh, I've got to have this sacred unicorn who can do everything for me because I've got to be 40 hours a week. And just even that conversation I think is really interesting right now because I'm always surprised by how many of my coaching clients think that that is what they have to do. I'm curious, did you feel that way?

Zoe (18:00.33)

Yeah. I haven't even gone that far, honestly. So they're way ahead of me. there you go. Yes.

Katie (18:03.938)

Yeah, yeah. Well, there's our free coaching session for today, folks. If you're thinking your first hire has to be a full-time employee, book a discovery call because we can talk about that. my gosh, it's so good.

Zoe (18:16.117)

Making myself the full-time employee was the challenge. I think that was the beginning for me. yeah. It's interesting.

Katie (18:22.191)

Yes, that's so many people. I love this conversation Zoe. Anything we haven't touched on that you're like, I really want to share this.

Zoe (18:30.357)

I think also one thing that I just thought about actually when we were having that conversation was the importance of pricing and how many people under price, undervalue themselves and their service. that has been, I mean, we're still on that journey and I'm still figuring that out, but that has really made me stop and think because the temptation is to stick that price way down because you don't have a massive portfolio yet or whatever the reason.

Katie (18:38.36)

Yeah.

Zoe (18:58.706)

Yeah, so that's a big one. And I get the impression from our conversations previously that that's also a challenge for so many people who get stuck then in this, you know, in this position with not getting what they really deserve and actually need to cover everything. So, yeah.

Katie (19:14.54)

Yes. And the two things I always say, perception is reality. If you are going to charge $95 an hour, expect to be treated like a $95 an hour designer. Like that is how your clients will perceive you.

150 % and stop jobbing. Stop looking at the job as a hobby that you're doing a favor to friends. You're doing a favor to, you know, as you were saying, right when we started this conversation, right? Like I, it's really changed how I view myself and it should, because you're no designers should treat it as a job. If they really want to make money at it and grow their business, if it's a, if you really are like, no, it truly is my hobby and I just enjoy it. Great. But if you want to run it as a business, make money in scale, then we have

Zoe (19:32.915)

Mm-hmm.

Zoe (19:50.995)

Thank

Mm-hmm.

Katie (19:57.88)

to get out of the jobby mindset and start pricing where we need to be for the market that we're in, which is very different in Columbus, Ohio than say Orange County. So, and knowing those differences and saying where do I need to be. I love that conversation, Zoe. This has been a good one. Thank you so much for sharing your insights. I love this.

Zoe (20:04.243)

Mm-hmm.

Zoe (20:11.602)

Yeah, no, has, Thank you for having me. Yeah, I don't have a huge amount of experience yet, but I'm definitely getting there and it's been absolutely fabulous to work with you so far. We're just at the beginning of the journey. yeah, excited for what comes. Thank you.

Katie (20:28.204)

I feel the same. Thank you. Thank you.