Interior Design Business Strategy That Works in a Downturn [The Table]: Transcript

katie [00:00:00]:

Do you love interior design but can't make the business side work? You've come to the right place. Welcome to Success by Design. Mastering the business of interior design. Whether you want to elevate in your current interior design firm, start your own firm, or move the needle when it comes to your existing firm's trajectory, this is your masterclass and I'm your host, Katie Erickson. Learn from my mistakes as I built a coast to coast, multi million dollar interior design firm. I share nearly 20 years of serving as a university professor of undergraduate and graduate business courses with you. And best of all, I bring in experts in all things business and interior design.

katie [00:00:43]:

Class starts now. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the table, where once a quarter we take on the hot topics with the industry leaders. And this time we usually have a very clearly defined topic. This clearly defined topic is not clear. It's economic uncertainty and is something we are all feeling around us. I'm sure your clients are feeling it. And that's why I wanted to pull Luann and John to the table and say, what are you seeing and what can you do to proactively get after it in your businesses with actionable steps? Because we can't change the reality that we don't know what's going on out there, but we can change how we respond to it.

katie [00:01:20]:

So without further ado, John, let's start. Where are you seeing it in your business specifically and how are you coaching to this? Because it's something that my coaching clients, we're having big conversations about.

John McClain [00:01:32]:

Yeah, well, let me pour my strong martini before we jump into this conversation.

katie [00:01:37]:

Make it a two or three for Lou and I. Yeah.

John McClain [00:01:40]:

Or Bloody Mary, whatever time of day it is. No, I'll just say it. It's a weird time. And I want to address the fact that not only is it a weird time for us dealing with clients, it's a weird time to be a creative person trying to create in this environment, trying to be a designer, trying to come up with, you know, innovative ideas. Because it's heavy. It just is. I'm really involved in listening to the news and watching it and seeing what's going on and trying not to get so wrapped up in it that I go crazy, but enough to be able to speak to it with coaching students and even with clients. So for me, I definitely see two sides of the table.

John McClain [00:02:19]:

I see where we're dealing with clients who are apprehensive to work with us or to work with a designer because they don't know what's going to happen in the world. And I also see it where a lot of people in our industry are just beaten down. We're just exhausted and tired from having to address it, and it affects our daily lives. So those are the two things that I'm seeing right now with the design community as a whole.

katie [00:02:41]:

100%. Lou, what are you seeing from your perch running three businesses and being so integrally involved in the industry?

Luann [00:02:50]:

You know what's funny is, unlike John, I don't consume the news on it. Right. So I'm just going to flat out tell you guys that up front, I'm much more inclined to be the type where we're like, let's deal with what's in front of our face. And if you are a smart business owner and you are tracking your data, number one, you are establishing goals, financial goals, and otherwise goals for yourself. And then you are intentionally tracking that data. It's like, okay, so there's a lot of conversation about economic uncertainty or whatever phrase you want to use. But. But tell me, in your business, are you up or you down? And what's your data tell you? We're six months into the year.

Luann [00:03:30]:

Are you on an upward track? Are you on a backward track, or are you on a standstill track? Because, yes, what's happening in the world is important. It's real. But what's more real is where you are. I appreciate that both you and John pay attention, because if I need to know a thing, you're the kind of people I'm going to call, because I'm not going to now start with the news and trying to figure out who's full of BS and who's not. I'm going to go to somebody trusted. But at my level, the way I run my businesses and the way Vin and I do it together is it's what's happening. But what's happening in our data? What is actually boots on the ground? Because you could tell me, by contrast, everything is great. This is a banger year, blah, blah, blah, and we could have started this.

Luann [00:04:16]:

Hey, John Luann. Every designer and their brothers having a banger year. Isn't this great? And I would be like, right, but what does your individual year look like? Because leaning on the greater trend of it's bad is just as bad as leaning on the greater trend of it's good. The reality is, is you gotta show up, track what you do, know where you're going, and monitor every month. Are you on the way?

katie [00:04:42]:

I love that.

Luann [00:04:43]:

So it doesn't negate that the information that you guys are following is good. I'm just telling you, for me, I. I'm just more like boots on the ground level, that's all.

katie [00:04:51]:

But I think it's an interesting point because there is this element of a self fulfilling prophecy to your point of if we showed up and we said it was a great year, you'd go, yeah, it's a great year. What we tell ourselves is also really true. And John, I think what you said too about trying to create in this environment when it does feel oppressive and heavy and all those things can be really hard too. And at some point, the value of unplugging just can't be underrated. We have to be aware of it. But there's also a point where you have to unplug and just get busy doing what you can do to that point. John, what are you advising your coaching clients to do when it comes to. Hey, like, I know this feels scary.

katie [00:05:27]:

I know it feels overwhelming. In fact, the Wall Street Journal article today said stocks are up, nobody knows why. So even the Wall Street Journal doesn't know what's going on out here. Super comforting. So what do you tell them, John? Like, what are you advising them to say to their clients? Because clients are coming to us. We're seeing in the commercial sector, we want to value engineer this. What can we do for that? What are you saying to your coaching clients?

John McClain [00:05:49]:

Other than that cocktail recommendation that I had earlier? Because that's really the number one, maybe.

katie [00:05:54]:

Just after the cocktail, three sips in part.

John McClain [00:05:58]:

So I just had a group coaching call yesterday and I had a lot of students on there in my program who were newer and some that were experienced, which I always love. I love that mix of understanding where everybody's perspective is because I think that gives me knowledge and knowledge is power. So that's where I come from. So I heard a lot of. I sent out three proposals and no one bit or I've been having a really difficult time getting full service design clients. So. Which is a whole other soapbox that I get on when we try to force everyone into full service design. That's the whole thing that no one should be forced into full service design when they should have another way of working with you.

John McClain [00:06:36]:

So my recommendation to a lot of people that I work with, and especially new designers or even experienced ones who are having trouble locking in clients for a big design fee, a big creative fee, is have another option to get them into your world. Have a package that says, look, you get this much of me, this little amount of Me for this amount of money, right? So you're gonna learn how I work. You're gonna learn how fabulous I am. You're gonna see how great my design ideas are. And I call it designer on demand, where a lot of people call it designer for the day. You go in, we go in for three hours. We solve all their problems. They're happy campers.

John McClain [00:07:13]:

We send them a list of where to purchase things, and we move on. We're the heroes. And so my recommendation is to my students and to a lot of people who might be having trouble is have another alternative to allow them to get to know you, to get to work with you. And honestly, you can make a lot of money. We charge $2,400 for three hours. So three of those a week, like, hello, that's good revenue.

katie [00:07:35]:

You're going to dinner on Friday night.

John McClain [00:07:37]:

Exactly. And a new pair of shoes, right? So the thing is, though, it gets them to understand, like, okay, wow, this is a lot of work. Like, I don't think I can do all of this on my own. But they've paid for what they get and they understand what they're getting for it. So there's tons of value in it. And the other thing is, too, nine times out of 10, most of those people turn into full service design clients at that point because they've gotten a taste of you and they want you to now go further. And, you know, there's a psychological aspect of it too. I'm like, you let them know, yeah, it is a lot of work about what we're about to do.

John McClain [00:08:10]:

This does take time and experience. So if you want to do it, you know, go on. If you want to have that 18 wheeler back up to your house and drop off everything in the sidewalk, go for it. Right? It's a whole, like, getting to the level of allowing them to understand what you can do, how you can do it, and why you should do it. And I think that's the way to get them into your world.

katie [00:08:28]:

Well, and I always say to my coaching clients too, you are hiring them, right? They're not just hiring you, but you hire the client, you don't hire the project. So it may start as a really small project, but if you're like, this is a client who has the resources. It's a personality fit. They're not going to nickel diamond shop me. This is. You're hiring them. I don't care if they want a powder bath done. Hire the client, build the relationship and watch them come back to your point and grow into something really magnanimous and beautiful.

katie [00:08:55]:

Yeah. That's what you're looking for.

Luann [00:08:57]:

That's a good point.

katie [00:08:57]:

And I think a lot of times we get that backwards in our industry. Yeah. It's like, well, it's a full service design.

John McClain [00:09:02]:

Yeah.

katie [00:09:03]:

But if they're like the worst nightmare client in the world, who fricking cares? You're going to be half a head short of hair by the time it's done. We've all had that client. Lou, going to the business side of this, like the deep seated business, what are you and Vin consistently doing, regardless of whether John and I are over here geeking out in our Wall street journals together, that you're like this we know works and we will not give up on it. We just do it over and over and over again.

Luann [00:09:29]:

Well, there's two things. There's maintenance, which I think is what you're talking about is how do you maintain the business year to year without losing control of the strings so that you don't get surprised. And that is setting projections based on data and the two different goals. Right. Is what I'm saying. And then it's the monitoring of it and collecting all the data all along. And what happens is, is that when you have that set out, just maintenance, whether it's a good year, a scary year, an even year or not, we're aware in July, not in December. So for me, the maintenance starts with setting out the goals but then consistently looking.

Luann [00:10:13]:

And when you see a goal met, high five, July. But break it down. Where is my lead gen happening? Why am I not converting anymore? Is my messaging wrong? Am I not talking? Right. Like if I don't pay attention every single month, whether I'm in joy or stress about my actual business, I'm doing a disservice to the ability to create a business that's going to withstand decades, not minutes.

katie [00:10:42]:

I love that.

John McClain [00:10:42]:

Can I just say something on that, Katie, real quick?

katie [00:10:45]:

Jump in.

John McClain [00:10:45]:

I totally agree with that. And I think there's two things there that pops into my head. First of all, a lot of designers don't know the data. That of course, we all know this. They don't look at it. Or the other thing I find is if they do know it, they don't share it with their team. They don't share what the goal is. They don't share what they're trying to reach and how we're going to get there.

Luann [00:11:05]:

Agreed.

John McClain [00:11:06]:

They take it and they just hold it inside. And we worry about it and we're stressed about It. And we don't tell our lead designer or our junior or anybody else on our team because we don't think they need to know. People, they need to know. They need to know what the goal is or they're not going to be able to help you hit it. So that is something that I really strive for, is to share the ups and the downs with my team and where we are and where we need to go. So just needed to add that in.

Luann [00:11:28]:

I agree with you. Most principals don't share anything or very little. I just had a chairman of the board conversation last week, and her designers are expecting bonuses even when the company at the end is not profitable. And they're like, well, I did my work. And I like, I literally looked at her and I said, do you have define job descriptions and define KPIs? And she's like, well, we have job descriptions. I said, step in the right direction. I said, what about KPIs? And she's like, I'm not sure what they would be. And my first thought was, I said to her, I said, well, what about billable hours? Do you have defined billable hours by designer? And she said, well, yes.

Luann [00:12:14]:

Ish. Right? Like, she's aware to your point, John, what they should be. But when somebody doesn't meet it, there's no repercussion, there's no conversation. I'm like, sweetie, here's what you do. You set up the billable, minimal billable hours for every employee, and at the end of every month, you review it. And if at the end of the quarter, they didn't hit them, guess what? I don't care if you made 300k. They don't get their bonus because they showed up. But they didn't show up productively.

Luann [00:12:41]:

They didn't show up profitably. They didn't show up in support of the company. And you know what? It's not all about just the company. It's like the airplane. I put my mask on, the company mask goes on first, and then everybody gets oxygen. But if the company doesn't have oxygen, I don't care what you do. It doesn't matter. So it's like we have this climate of, well, I did my job every day and I did all my designs and I did all.

Luann [00:13:09]:

We'll bully for you. Awesome. Great. But if we don't make money because you didn't do billable or because you didn't watch operational expenses or because you made 16 mistakes and I had to retile that bathroom 42 times, guess what? There's consequences.

katie [00:13:23]:

You know, it goes back to company culture. And there's this great mantra that I heard that we've started implementing. Think like an owner.

Luann [00:13:29]:

Yeah, yeah.

katie [00:13:29]:

But by the same token, you can't tell your people to think like an owner and not give them the data set to understand what that actually means. And I think sometimes we're afraid, oh, are they going to go off and start their own firm?

John McClain [00:13:40]:

We're afraid of everything.

katie [00:13:41]:

Hey, seriously, Chicken Little, the sky could fall.

Luann [00:13:45]:

That's right.

katie [00:13:45]:

But at some point, you have to empower your people, and if you want them to think like an owner, give them the data set to think like an owner. We just had this happen with a client in our firm, one of our biggest clients. They're like, honestly, we've stopped using you the last few months because we just don't feel like your designs are up to snuff. What was fascinating, they wouldn't tell us. It was the, like, one of the bottom people on the totem pole who's like, yeah, I was on a call. This was the conversation. I'm like, well, thank you for stepping up and saying so. Needed to have the conversation.

katie [00:14:14]:

Right. So pulled the whole team into a call. I'm like, this is the conversation, folks. So what are we going to do to fix it?

Luann [00:14:20]:

Yeah.

katie [00:14:21]:

What are we going to go after? How are we going to change turnaround times? How are you going to be better at sourcing? What do you need for me to make it happen? And we're going to win him back. I will not accept.

John McClain [00:14:31]:

Right.

katie [00:14:31]:

This is not going to be doable.

Luann [00:14:32]:

Right.

katie [00:14:33]:

Well, what's been interesting in the last couple of weeks, Guess what? The other people, they've tried. It's not working out. They're coming back to us, and now we know what we need to do better. Thank you for having the conversation. But the urgency and the fear, it was great. Not that I want to make people afraid. That's not the conversation. It's the empowerment of seeing in their eyes, like, oh, shit, you know? And like, this isn't working.

John McClain [00:14:59]:

Yeah.

Luann [00:14:59]:

It's to John's point when he said, you have to inform.

katie [00:15:02]:

Absolutely.

Luann [00:15:03]:

A lot of designers function with this needs to be done, but everybody on the team is just designing and doing things and not connecting the metrics. But they have to know what their metrics are that they have to hit. And if we keep that secret, how do we expect them to hit it if they don't know what they are?

John McClain [00:15:20]:

But, you know, I know where this comes from. Most designers, let's just be honest, we all start out as a one person show. That's just how we do it, right? So in our head, we're just chugging along, we're doing everything. We're doing the designs, we're doing the presentations. We're maybe looking at our, you know, PNL maybe, who knows, you know, talking to our bookkeeper. And then we start bringing people into our team, which is cool, right? Okay, good. I have a someone helping me with design. I have someone helping me, you know, schedule appointments, whatever that procurement is.

John McClain [00:15:46]:

Then we stay in that solopreneur mind and we keep it right here between our two ears and we don't share it with people and we don't give them autonomy to listen to the facts, to the data that you're saying, and then make an informed decision about what they need to do. Sorry, this is a big soapbox for me because I learned the hard way why this is not a good thing to do. What happens is they start fixing the problem before it even gets to you. So then they start being proactive about it because they know what number they need to hit. They know where we're behind. They know, Katie, like you said, when a client's upset and then they fix it and then you're like, wow, okay, you knew about that. You increased this and changed that and now look at it, it's resolved. I didn't even have to get involved in it.

Luann [00:16:27]:

And don't they feel great by doing that too? Everybody wants to show up and be a grownup and be the best version of themselves. And if they are empowered to constantly visualize what excellence looks like, then they can constantly strive for it.

katie [00:16:41]:

Yes, well, and I think as business owners, it really does fall on us. What we're talking about is internal stakeholder management. And when we are taking care of them, they will take care of us. To your point, Lou. But the end user, the client ends up feeling it too. And that's what come. There's always this tension and you know, the big heady business world of education, of do you take care of your internal stakeholders, you take care of your external stakeholder. I'm like, false dichotomy.

katie [00:17:04]:

You take care of both of them. But I think as so many business owners, we forget about our internal people. Right. We're so focused on making the client happy, making this happy, which we're really putting the cart before the horse. Get busy taking care of your internal people, they'll take care of your external people. Right. And to John's point, which I think is fascinating. I had a coaching client yesterday take home last year $25,000 and paying more to procurement and project management and more to bookkeeping than to herself.

katie [00:17:32]:

And at some point you have to sit back and go, where are the KPIs? Where is your overhead expense ratio? How are you applying that to your project? In fact, I actually had one coaching client 2 weeks ago who said, I don't want to talk about my numbers. I just want to talk about what I should do next.

Luann [00:17:45]:

Oh, that's fine.

katie [00:17:45]:

I'm like, I don't know if this is going to work for us. And I really felt bad because this individual is quite upset with me. And I said, well, I don't know how to guide the conversation because until we know what your debt ratio is, until we talk about your leasing expenses and whether you should go bigger or not, I can't tell you where to scale. I can't tell you if even should scale. I can't even tell you if you should keep the people you got.

Luann [00:18:07]:

And if you listen to me without giving me that information, shame on you for listening to me. Come on.

John McClain [00:18:14]:

You know what the problem is, though? I think a lot of times what I ask people is, what is your currency? What matters to you? It's a great question because to some people, having this beautiful project on their website or getting into a magazine like, oh, that is worth way more than giving yourself more than than $25,000 a year, which I don't agree with, FYI. But to some people, that's where their brain is and that's where their goal is. That's the mark that they're trying to hit. And it takes all of us, you know, like, shaking them and saying, like, no, yeah, that's great. Be in a magazine, have a beautiful portfolio on your website. Also, you need to kind of make money doing that at the same time, and you need to know the numbers of what you're doing. So it's just a matter of like, pulling yourself back, letting your ego go, and saying, okay, maybe I don't take that project because I'm not going to make a lot of money off that. And my gross and net revenue is not going to be there and it's not worth my time, even though it's going to be beautiful.

John McClain [00:19:07]:

Right? So it's just a matter of pulling yourself back and looking at it from a higher point of view.

katie [00:19:11]:

I think once you know your numbers too, I think in economic uncertainty, the first thing that most businesses cut is marketing, because you go, oh, pull back. I can't show a direct roi, so I'm going to. We're going to cut back. And that's the part where I'm like, okay, that's like stacking your feet and then shooting yourself in the foot. Like, it's the worst possible idea ever.

Luann [00:19:33]:

I have never heard that expression. That is.

katie [00:19:36]:

Well, that's how I feel though, Right. Because I'm like, that is the worst thing you can do. Like, you're trying so hard to do the worst thing possible for your business. Let's talk about marketing, because it seems like the easy way to cut. What's your approach to marketing for you, Lou, when it comes to you and Vinnie and the businesses, when there is economic uncertainty, do you change anything? Do you double down? Where do you go?

Luann [00:19:59]:

Here's the line. Always be marketing, period, Beginning and end of sentence. That's what we say. Always be marketing. If I heard it once, I've heard it nine gabillion times.

katie [00:20:08]:

Yes.

Luann [00:20:09]:

Because I mentioned a couple of minutes ago, like, the maintenance level things that you do if you're actually approaching an economic downturn. Like, if it's real, whether it's real in the world or real for you, real is real. To me. There is the strategy of I'm an adult walking around the world. I do certain things so that I remain healthy. I have a certain base level of exercise that I do. I have a certain base level of nutrition that I do. I have a certain base level of sleep that I do.

Luann [00:20:37]:

Does. Sometimes I stay out all night and have too much drink. Yep. Do I feel pain all day, the next day? Yep. But do I do it every day? Nope. Do I sometimes like, exercise every single day for three hours? And I've only eat, you know, 20 grams of sugar a day. Yep. Can I do it for more than three days? Nope.

Luann [00:20:55]:

We have our ups and downs, but what I mentioned before was the baseline. If you build them into your business and into the way you manage your business, you will succeed over years. But then there's the. I'm rushing to the emergency room.

John McClain [00:21:09]:

Yeah.

Luann [00:21:10]:

Like, I need triage. And people are screaming and yelling and somebody's trying to decide, okay, is this a headache that just is she's screaming like a lunatic or is. Is she actually bleeding from every opening of her body?

John McClain [00:21:24]:

And both can be true.

katie [00:21:25]:

And both can be true, John, for normalizing the non normal. Yes.

John McClain [00:21:29]:

That.

Luann [00:21:31]:

That's the thing. Right. So when we talk about that triage, that's when it's a real thing. And so My answer, there's a whole protocol for triage in a business and a downturn, but the answer is, how do you handle it marketing wise? It's like if business according to your numbers is good or a little off, then the reaction is not to pull back on your marketing. Go harder, go more. But if you're like, I'm racing to the emergency room. Okay, are we going to pay for a marketing thing before we pay for the studio rent? No, but are we going to figure out grassroots marketing? Because always be marketing is a thing. So it just might mean that it looks different because I don't want to give the pat answer because if I'm literally not making payroll, I have nothing in my pipeline, I have rent due, my home mortgage is on the line.

Luann [00:22:31]:

You know, I'm not going to make my kids tuition. Should I hire the social media expert? Yeah, probably not, but do I convert and become the social media expert? Because I have no projects. So in my mind you get no pass on not marketing. It's just be intelligent on the different levels where your business is at, what's happening, right? And you have to go to your past data and find out what's working. What's so funny is, quick story. When Covid hit, there was a designer at the time, was doing 1,5 million in business the year before. And at March of the COVID year, she was headed towards 3 million from her projections. I had met her once, interviewed her on the podcast, didn't know her, had never met her in real life.

Luann [00:23:14]:

And we were two weeks into the COVID and lockdown close, no revenue. Okay, so that's it, like 36 years and that's it, like, are you kidding me? This is how it ends. It's like kind of looking at each other like, wait a minute. And I get a DM because she didn't know how else to reach me. And she tells me who she is and she said I was headed towards 3,3 million. She goes, I'm not going down without a fight. She goes, I have no idea who can help me, but it occurs to me that you could. Will you help me? I came back and I'm like, oh my God, like in what way? And she's like, I don't know, put me in a room with four other people, have the same problem.

Luann [00:23:54]:

Like, let's do a mastermind or something. So we immediately put together this mastermind of five intelligent women. And what we decided to do was marketing. And we said, everybody go back and next week, every project for the last year and if you can go back two or three years, trace the source of how it came to you. And what was so funny is, oh, I think mine are referrals. I think mine are this. I think mine are that. Great.

Luann [00:24:21]:

I'm so thrilled at what you think it is. Go get me the numbers. And this one designer came back, and she was like, I can't believe it. She goes, I would have told you that I got a good chunk of my business here, but I actually figured out that, like, 62% of my business, oddly, as a luxury firm, is coming from Facebook. This is what I'm saying. When you don't track it, you make the story up. And we all just were like, we can strategize Facebook on Covid. Like, we don't need to be anywhere.

Luann [00:24:58]:

You literally can lean into this. And so that's the thing. It's like the ER doc runs out, and he looks at the head, he looks the heart, he looks at this, and he's like, oh, you know, there's a big gash in her fever. We got better femur. We got a bleeder like tourniquet. Let's go.

katie [00:25:14]:

Well, I love your passion, though, because it's all based on numbers. Data, data, data, data, data. If you take nothing away from this entire show, it is. And have the packages that you need to have that are backed by the data to get the people in so that you have those leads. It's so incredibly important. How are you telling people to market, John, that you're interacting with?

John McClain [00:25:39]:

If I were a designer, listening to us right now, and especially after hearing Luann and what she just said, my takeaway would be, first of all, yes, keep it going all year long. Keep it going every day, Keep it going every month. Figure out ways to do that. My other takeaway and something that I instruct people to do is it doesn't always have to cost you money. Like Luann said, it can cost you time. And if you have more time now, put more time into it. It doesn't cost you a cent to do a newsletter. It doesn't cost you a cent to go to a chamber of commerce meeting.

John McClain [00:26:10]:

You know, membership, of course, but your time is what you're giving. It doesn't cost you anything to reach out to a past client and say, hey, do you know anybody? The problem is we're just kind of uncomfortable doing it, and we don't really think about us actually being the person to do that. So we always just want to throw money at someone and say, hey, you do it. No. Sometimes Mr. And Mrs. Design business owner, you have to be the person to take the reins and to get out there and be the boots on the ground like Luann said, and be the person, you know, shaking the bushes and do that consistently. And it doesn't always have to cost you money from revenue from your business.

John McClain [00:26:44]:

It can cost you the time. Yes, it may take you more time to do it in the beginning, but once you get in a routine of reaching out to this person on a regular basis or attending this real estate function that will bring in more clients for you. That to me, is a huge well of potential clients and potential business coming in. But like Luann said, you have to do it consistently. You're not just going to wait until you're free bleeding and then you run out and try to bring someone in. No, you do it all the time. Then the pipeline is full even in the downtime. So that's my suggestion to people.

Luann [00:27:17]:

Yeah, marketing should be like the gym. You don't show up two weeks before an event and think you're gonna like, completely transform your body. You don't show up two weeks before your last project's about to end and go, I need a new one. It's like you gotta show up every week. And yeah, you should have the problem that all of a sudden you have so many leads that you have to turn them down and say, I can't start you until March. Great. Refer it to another designer. Let me tell you, most people, that's not the first problem they have.

Luann [00:27:46]:

The first problem they have is not showing up to the marketing, like the gym consistently. Talk to me when you got the problem because I've done it so well and so consistently have too many leads. Great, we'll talk about that problem too. We can figure it out.

John McClain [00:27:58]:

Another bee in my bonnet with this whole thing is everyone just throws their stuff on social media. Oh, my God. Yeah, I just posted about this. I don't know why no one's. Because first of all, everyone's not on social media. The algorithm is going to boost you when it wants to and put you in front of people when it wants to. And thirdly, you just showing a room that you did, expecting praise from that is not going to bring in a client. So that to me is this cop out that I see so many designers do.

John McClain [00:28:22]:

They think they're marketing and they think the world is seeing it. They never check their insights to even see if there's eyeballs on that post or if there's people even reacting to that or the last thing that really drives me bonkers. Oh, my God, I hate it so much. They'll post something on social media, feel so proud of themselves, move on with their day, wait for clients to start rolling in, and then people do start commenting and they're like, heart. They don't even reply back and say, yeah, isn't that great? So I hate that so much. It is so lazy on our part as entrepreneurs, not even just as designers, but as entrepreneurs to not proactively communicate with people who are communicating with us. So find ways that work and then keep nurturing it and figuring out ways to make it even better.

Luann [00:29:04]:

Yeah, it's like inviting somebody to a party and they come to your front door. You're like, great, thanks. Come on in and walk away.

katie [00:29:10]:

That's the best way to.

Luann [00:29:11]:

You're here, you know there's drinks somewhere. I don't know where, Go find them.

John McClain [00:29:15]:

Or they say, like, oh, my God, yeah, this is a great party. And then you just stare at them. You don't even respond at all.

katie [00:29:20]:

When you put it like that, it seems so egregious and, like, so horrible to, like, not interact with them and not spend time in that space with them.

Luann [00:29:27]:

Well, especially if that's what you're doing, right?

katie [00:29:30]:

Yeah.

Luann [00:29:30]:

If that's your goal, then, like, play it all the way to the end zone. Don't throw the ball and then sit it down.

John McClain [00:29:36]:

But then you complain because there's no one. I'm like, okay, like, do you even know that you have a business because you're putting it out there? Do you even recognize what you're doing and what you're not doing?

katie [00:29:45]:

A hundred percent well. And I think, too, they look for conversion off of social media. Like, social media is not a conversion point for our business. It is a pillar of a larger marketing strategy, which is why you can't just pull one leg out from under at any given point. Because they're all working in synergy, as hopefully you have a marketing strategy, Right? Like, if you could get them to engage on your socials, they should be getting your newsletter. Because then the newsletter goes directly to the inbox. Then you're in front of them, whether you want to.

John McClain [00:30:11]:

What's a newsletter?

katie [00:30:12]:

Oh, my gosh. What's a nurture sequence? I'm like, if you have to ask, then you don't have one and you desperately need one. Strategy number one. Let's start there.

Luann [00:30:20]:

Yeah.

katie [00:30:21]:

But it's interesting that, like, we think that social media, to your point, John, is the golden moon of what we do and it really isn't, it's a lot of times a look alive strategy or give them the methodology behind that. Give them the case study of the work and the time and the energy and the intentionality and the thought process that went into that so they realize that you really are the subject matter expert in the space.

Luann [00:30:44]:

Yeah. I mean, the thing is like, understand something. Design is a luxury ticket item.

katie [00:30:51]:

Totally.

Luann [00:30:52]:

Even at its most entry level, paying somebody to pick your paint colors, if I can go into the aisle of a box store and do it without you, I am automatically making a decision to pay your expertise for it, whether it's designing a $10 million, 10,000 square foot home or picking paint colors. So luxury ticket items are generally relationship based 100%. So like to your point, it's awareness may start there, but to John's point, if you then don't get them to a newsletter where they can start to learn about you and your ideals and your values and your mission and your culture and how you approach decision making and what's your philosophy on whether you're sustainable or you're vegan or whatever. It's a luxury sale. You just don't buy that off the shelf. You buy that based on understanding and having that initial relationship with somebody.

katie [00:31:48]:

And because it's relationship based, it has to be consistent. Nobody wants to be in a bipolar relationship. So one day you're there, next moment you're not. It's like a bad dating relationship. Right. Like he texted me, but then I didn't hear from him for three weeks. I'm like, are we going out to dinner again? Probably not. The same is true of hiring your designer.

katie [00:32:07]:

Right. Like you want to be top of consciousness for them, be consistent. Say, we've been in business this many years, we're not going anywhere. That's one of my favorite things to say to clients when they come to us and they're like, okay, so yes, the asset management team reviewed this. They want to postpone paint until January. Back to economic uncertainty. Right. Fine, Great.

katie [00:32:25]:

We've been here almost 20 years. We're going to be here into forever. We're not going anywhere.

Luann [00:32:30]:

Right.

katie [00:32:30]:

You don't know how many times. In fact, the email dropped in my inbox this morning. We had that exact situation. We'll see you. Q1 of 26. Great. Asset Management changed its mind. They're ready to move forward now.

katie [00:32:40]:

Awesome. Still here, still doing what we do, Doing it. Consistently putting you through our processes. We'll send over the proposal today. Amazing. Thanks. So Much like that's how you build that repeat business, whether you're in the commercial space or you're in the residential space. And that's why you cannot pull the plug on marketing.

katie [00:32:59]:

Unless, to your point, Lou, you're in a triage situation.

Luann [00:33:02]:

But then you do free marketing.

katie [00:33:04]:

Then you do the free. In fact, it's interesting. The episode that's airing right before this one was seven things you can do to save your business and economic uncertainty. They don't cost you a dime.

Luann [00:33:13]:

Oh, good.

katie [00:33:13]:

And I get. People say that, like, yes, your time does cost money. But if you've got time, to your point, John, get busy using it to say, I am here and be here consistently. And the other thing, too, is show up in the spaces where your clients dancer at. If they're volunteering at the opera and the ballet, guess what? Volunteer at the opera and ballet. You don't have to be a $10,000 a year sponsor to the opera and ballet. You just need to get your booty in there and start volunteering. Because nobody turns away volunteers, right? Like, show up where they are, doing the things they love, and it's a great way to be top of consciousness again for them.

John McClain [00:33:48]:

I love that. That's great.

Luann [00:33:50]:

Especially if you can align it with something you love. Like, I could never show up to that every week just to, like, cultivate relationships. But I could tell you what y. Yeah. If I had time and I wanted clients that were patrons of the ballet, you put me on a committee. At the end of the day, is the widget a ballet subscription, or is the widget at a chairman of the board? Or I could get focused on a committee in a lane, you know what I mean? And then, as a regular human, connect with the others. But it'd be nicer if you aligned it with something that matters to you.

katie [00:34:23]:

You know, it was so funny. I had a coaching client, and we were having this exact conversation, and I said, where are they all? And she goes, they're at the country club pool. And I said, why are you not at the country club pool? She goes, I cannot do the country club pool because of all the kids. And I am past that point in my life, and I would rather lose my entire firm than go to the country club pool. And so we reengineered the whole strategy. But I so appreciated her saying, like, I can't do. And I'm like, you know, that's why when I draw my last kid at college, 55 plus communities look so stinking good to me. Like, and my husband's like, absolutely not.

katie [00:34:59]:

We will never go to 55 plus. And I'm like, well, you know, we have a few more years to work that out, because that looks like a dream boat after dealing with kids for how long? And dogs and pets and. And I just want the 55 plus. Just saying. But what would you say as we round out this conversation? That is the one piece of advice you would leave to people that are feeling maybe they don't have a pipeline and they are scared. Maybe they do have a pipeline and they're still scared, which I often find in coaching clients, too. It's just a confidence and you've got this mindset. But what would you say to them? Rounding out the conversation, we'll start with John.

John McClain [00:35:39]:

I would say this. I know a lot of people might be scared, and they might be scared because they don't have clients, and they might be scared because they don't have revenue coming in. So those are two legitimate concerns. And they might be listening to us thinking, okay, cool, you're all three coaches. You have people who are paying you. I don't even have money to pay you. So my advice would be look around you, look to other designers, look to the community that you're in. In my program, we have what's called a promise pod, where they.

John McClain [00:36:06]:

I link other designers up with other people and they hold themselves accountable, you know, for doing things within the program. So you can do that on your own. You can find designers that you met at High Point at KBIS or whatever and start a text chain and just root each other on, ask each other what the other one's doing that's working. Maybe you're going to pick up on something that you can implement tomorrow. Maybe you'll pick up on something that will take a little longer. But look to your colleagues, look to your friends, look to designers who are doing things and maybe having the same problems or have had the same problems, and then keep that going within yourselves and then you can get a solution and then you can support each other throughout it. So that's my advice for people who might be stuck and really don't see a way out.

katie [00:36:48]:

I love that.

Luann [00:36:49]:

I love it, too.

katie [00:36:50]:

I remember when I said that to Lou, I'm like, what about, like, competitiveness? Because I feel like sometimes our industry can be competitive. And Lou, I just love it because you just let it rip like you do, and you're like, oh, just get over yourself. There's always going to be those people. You go, you find your own tribe, you show up with your tribe.

John McClain [00:37:05]:

Sounds like her.

katie [00:37:06]:

So was. And at first, because I didn't know you that well back then, I was like, oh, was that a dumb question? I hope she doesn't think I'm an idiot, like, asking that question. But it was just so honest. You're just like, yeah, yeah, yeah, move on and find the people. Like Michelle Lynn says, you know, there's plenty of ugly houses for everybody. Go find your people that want to do it with you. What would you say, Lou, to round out the conversation?

Luann [00:37:29]:

Well, I'm going to take the other side of it, but not because I'm not in 100% alignment with John's advice. So I think it's. You have to go with both of these pieces of advice. So this is literally play that back again, listen to it, burn it on your brain cells. And then the practical side of it is going back to that thing. Are you screaming at the emergency room because you. You have a headache, which is bad, or are you screaming at the emergency room because you're truly in physical distress? And my thing is is there has to be an analysis of that. Not to beat a dead horse, but you're not gonna know unless you have the data.

Luann [00:38:12]:

But once you have the analysis, there's different things to do. So if the analysis is that the world is heavy to John's opening points. Right. The world is heavy now. It's hard. So please do as John said. Get your people that support you and understand you and process through the insanity, but then really pick it apart. Like, how bad is it? Get an objective and opinion.

Luann [00:38:39]:

Because if it's bad, but it feels worse from a financial standpoint because of the heavy of the emotional, that's one path. But if it's also emotional and heavy and desperate and also financially acute, there's steps. I did a podcast at the beginning of COVID The action steps to take, like the triage. I am coming out of the emergency room. I am the ER doctor, and the gurney is wheeling up and bang, bang, bang. This is what we're gonna do. And so that episode is there and it just. If you are in dire needs.

Luann [00:39:13]:

You know what I mean?

katie [00:39:14]:

Yes. Please send it to us. We'll include it in the show notes. That's the thing I love about this. And I hope that, like, if you are listening, you take away. This doesn't have to be scary. Yes. Have those feelings, as my therapist says.

katie [00:39:25]:

And I love this. Feelings are real, but they are not always true.

Luann [00:39:29]:

Great line.

katie [00:39:30]:

Right? He's a PhD. I'm not but have your feelings, they can be real. It doesn't mean they're, that they're true. And then here's the actionable steps, like I hope you're hearing, like know your KPIs, know your data, da da da da da da da da. We're going to beat that dead horse and then we're going to put the link to the seven steps that Lou talks about that her and Benny have fine tuned over the years. Because also I hope you're hearing from like John, me, Lou, guess what? We're gonna have another crisis because if there's anything consistent in life, it's inconsistency. And so whether you're feeling that today or it's coming down the pike, whether it's geopolitical, whether it's tariffs, whether it's, we don't understand stocks, according to the Wall Street Journal, whatever it may be, there are going to be so many things in your business you cannot control but you can only control how you respond to them. And there is a formula for that and there are ways to do it.

katie [00:40:21]:

Do not pull the plug on your marketing unless you're hemorr and keep going because that is the durability that will set you apart from, to use your term, Lou, the lookalikes, the pretenders. That's how you get to be a multi decade business like all of ours are. And then that's why we step into this space to help others. This is such a good conversation.

Luann [00:40:40]:

Yeah.

katie [00:40:41]:

Thank you guys so much. Appreciate your time. Come find us if you have can. We would love to chat with you and figure out how to get you where you need to be. Thanks everybody.

John McClain [00:40:49]:

Thanks.

Luann [00:40:50]:

Thanks Katie.