Katie Decker-Erickson [00:00:04]:

Do you love interior design, but can't make the business side work? You've come to the right place. Welcome to Success by Design, mastering the business of interior design. Whether you wanna elevate in your current interior design firm, start your own firm, or move the needle when it comes to your existing firm's trajectory, this is your masterclass, and I'm your host, Katie Decker-Erickson Erickson. Learn from my mistakes as I built a coast to coast multimillion dollar interior design firm. I share nearly twenty years of serving as a university professor of undergraduate and graduate business courses with you. And best of all, I bring in experts in all things business and interior design. Class starts now. Hey, John.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:00:46]:

Welcome to the show.

John McClain [00:00:47]:

Hey, Katie Decker-Erickson. I'm so happy to be here. How are you?

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:00:50]:

Good. We are so excited to have you. And, I'm totally fangirling in this moment because when I reached out to Lou Anne and said, I wanna do an episode on this. Who do you think? And she's like, you've gotta talk to John. I'm like, of course I have to talk to John. That's a great idea. I wanna get into this. But one thing we love to do at the beginning of an episode when we have a really interesting guest especially is do two truths and a lie.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:01:12]:

And when I asked for yours and they came through from our producer, I read them and I went, these are so good. I don't know what's the truth and what's the lie. And so without further ado, here is our two truths and a lie, and we will reveal at the end what are the truths and which is the lie.

John McClain [00:01:30]:

Okay.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:01:31]:

So John submitted. I wrote for Fashion Police for Us Weekly magazine, number one. Number two, I once told a client we couldn't work together after I saw what she worded the consultation. I have to admit that I totally I've worn things that I shouldn't wear to places I shouldn't go. Has anyone ever fired me? Is that the truth or the lie? And then number three, I dropped out of design school one semester away from graduating and then was designing for an a list celebrity four days later.

John McClain [00:02:00]:

Mhmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:02:00]:

Gosh. These are so good. Okay. So stick around to the end of the episode. We're gonna figure out what are the two truths, what is the lie, and I can't wait to see. But one thing you have cracked the nut on for sure is those 7 figure clients. And we talked about what is a 7 figure client? How do you attract a 7 figure client? How do you get into that market? That is a hard nut to crack, and you have done it, which is why I wanted to have you on the show. How hard was it for you, and how much of it was luck? Honestly, sometimes I feel like in our industry, it's luck.

John McClain [00:02:33]:

You know, when I first started, I was probably like everyone else. I was taking on anybody with a heartbeat and a checkbook and signing them on and bringing them into my business and getting projects that I felt were my right type of client. And it turns out that all of them were not. Some of them were and some of them were not. So I decided to sort of sit down one day and say, okay. Which clients have I really enjoyed working with? Which clients have I made the most profit on? Which clients were respectful of my intellectual property? What lives between my two ears? And when I did that, the list really narrowed down to much fewer people, but I found a lot of characteristics between each one of them that I valued. And so I decided to go after those type of people, those people who I knew were aligned with the way that I wanted my business to be, the brand that I wanted to become. And that's really how I started doing it.

John McClain [00:03:32]:

And once I understood who they were and I know we hear the term ideal client all the time, and and it's a overused term a lot, but it's so true. And I call it your very best client. Who is your very best client for your business model, for what your goals are, you know, with your own company, what your goals are personally? And so I really just dove into that. And when I did, everything changed. My messaging changed, how I spoke to people at a cocktail party changed, how I spoke to people at a realtor event changed, you know, how I spoke to people on social media. And then as simple as it sounds, the right people just started coming to me. It was really an eye opening experience, and I didn't know if it was going to work in the beginning, but thank god it did.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:04:13]:

That's such a great point. And I wanna go back to what you said about taking on clients who have a heartbeat and a checkbook. I think there's so many designers that can relate because they're just taking anyone who shows up at their door proud that they have business. How did you get over the fear of saying, I'm gonna say no. You're not, to your point, my very best client. How did you get over the fear of saying, my books might be dry for a hot minute, but I'm holding out for the very best client. Yeah. I feel like that's a big jump.

John McClain [00:04:40]:

It is. It is scary. And when you're new, to everyone's credit who's new, it's okay. Like, you need that experience. You don't even know who your ideal client is, who your very best client is. But so you do need those ups and downs to kinda figure it out and say, oh, crap. Who was that? I'll never work with them again. But, again, you find the ones that are good.

John McClain [00:05:00]:

But, yeah, to get over the fear, I knew I was going to do this, and so I sort of stockpiled money in my bank account just in case this situation happened to where the other people weren't attracting to me that quickly.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:05:13]:

I love

John McClain [00:05:13]:

it. Because I take risk, but they're calculated risk. Right?

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:05:17]:

So smart. I love calculated risk. It's one of my favorite things. My husband is completely risk adverse, and I'm like, no. Just look at the metrics. This is such a wise decision. He's like, it's so risky. And I'm like, no.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:05:28]:

It's not. The metrics support it. You should go for that. So, yeah, there is so if I'm hearing you right, there's value in taking everyone with a heartbeat and a checkbook for a hot minute so that you can have the resources you need to catapult into that market that you want to be in.

John McClain [00:05:43]:

Yeah. And even now, there are clients who I know I will never photograph the Joneses project, but the Joneses project is great because it gives us something to do between other projects. So I will not say always no to the projects that aren't as large as I would like for them to be because they are valuable in different ways. But the ideal client situation and and understanding who that is is just I urge everyone listening, don't ever bypass that step in your business. Don't ever stop to forget to ask yourself who you should be working with. And, Katie Decker-Erickson, I go deep with it. I go to, like, my core values. I think about what person I want to be in bed with, quote, unquote, during the project.

John McClain [00:06:24]:

Because my thing I tell clients is the line I use. I'm like, I'm gonna see your bra and your underwear on the floor at some point in this process, so let's just get to know each other now, and we're going to be best friends.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:06:36]:

100%. This is why I do commercial.

John McClain [00:06:41]:

Smart.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:06:42]:

Bedroom stories. I'm just like, that makes me turn three shades of magenta. I'm in commercial for a reason.

John McClain [00:06:49]:

You know, it's so funny you say that because, at one time, we had a very big celebrity client, and, we were tasked with removing items from their bedroom. And celebrity clients don't wanna touch anything. So I was like, okay. Come on, team. Let's go in. So we go in, and we're literally removing bedside drawer items, if you know what I mean. Kinda scary. And I was like, I could've run to TMZ and reported this and got lots of exposure, but I did not.

John McClain [00:07:13]:

I did not.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:07:14]:

You know, when you say that though, I'm like, oh, they're just like everybody else. There's a reason those stores are in business. Right? It's not because they have one buyer. It's because they have a lot of buyers. And yeah. I'll never forget, and I think I've shared this on the show before. But one time, I had a client who didn't have a headboard, but she did have conveniently a hole about the size of her head where a headboard should be. And she needed her drywall patched, and we just patched the drywall, and we just moved right on from that because I didn't know what else to say except for, yes, we can patch your drywall as part of this.

John McClain [00:07:47]:

That is too

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:07:49]:

yeah. That's how that went.

John McClain [00:07:51]:

Wow. Wow.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:07:52]:

I know. Right? Things that you're just like, and I'm like, I think I'm going into commercial for the rest of my life. Like, yeah, I'd be happy to help you with that clubhouse. Like, those don't have headboards. I'm great with that. Or missing headboards in in our case. I wanna back into your story because for those of you that are being introduced to you for the first time, which is gonna hopefully be a very small portion of our demographic. What first drew you to design in general? Like, what got those fires burning? It seems like a basic question, but we were just talking about it on our stand up call with our team this morning.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:08:24]:

And we have a problem subcontractor who just doesn't love what they do, and it's so evident. And I'm like, you're wasting our time. You're wasting your time. Go figure out what you love to do. And, like, now I just tell them it doesn't seem like this is what you love to do. It's not your passion clearly. What is your passion? And now sitting in the seat of my mid forties and missing hormones, I'm pretty honest about it, and I don't know how much of a filter. And I just tell them, you're not enjoying this, and we're not either.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:08:48]:

So what is it that you do enjoy? And then get busy doing that. Obviously, interior design is what you love. How did you get there?

John McClain [00:08:54]:

I love, first of all, that you were giving therapy classes to your to your tradespeople. That's fantastic. I think that's wonderful. We do it to clients, so you'd give it to your trades. That's fantastic.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:09:04]:

Well, I don't know if it's advisable, but it is what is happening in our world. Let's just say that.

John McClain [00:09:09]:

But, yeah, for me, I love hearing everyone's journey into this crazy business that we're in. And you'd think that it would be similar, but it's not always. It's not always the same path. And so for me, I'm turning 50 this year. So for me, I've been around for a while in my world. And when I first got the bug for it, I was watching my family, and my family built houses. And I would go, and my mom would say, why do you wanna go on a Saturday and spend all day at this construction site? And I was like, I don't know. I just think it's so interesting that they can start by laying the foundation of the cinder blocks and then start building the platforms, and then the house starts emerging, and then there's a roof, and then there's walls.

John McClain [00:09:48]:

And it was just so intriguing to me and so fascinating. And I saw the skill set that went into making that home come to life. And then after it was finished, I was like, oh my god. Now they can have fun. They can go inside and do, like, all the decorating and choose the wall colors and the draperies and, you know, all the things. And and that's when I realized that it was something that was really innate in me. And so I started doing it, of course, for myself. I bought my first house when I was 21 years old.

John McClain [00:10:17]:

It was a

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:10:18]:

Well done, sir. That isn't shiny.

John McClain [00:10:21]:

Crazy. Right?

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:10:22]:

Amazing.

John McClain [00:10:23]:

But it was an 1886 farmhouse that was in desperate need of repair. I had no money to, you know, do any of it. I was so young. I had no money, and I was like, please bank. Please finance this house. Please. Please. Please.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:10:34]:

This might be the worst idea ever, but I want it. Yeah. I've never had those.

John McClain [00:10:39]:

Yeah. Exactly. Right? This was not a calculated risk, I don't think, on my part. This was more of just a risk.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:10:43]:

Well, you're 21. We'll cut the younger John some slack.

John McClain [00:10:46]:

Thank you. But yeah. So I bought it, and then I had been doing my little renovations in my own, you know, room of my parents' home before that. And then my family was also big on, like, we had a second home in Florida that we purchased, and it was a terrible, you know, just in horrible condition. And so I was able to sort of work with them during that process of renovation, and then, of course, they turned to me as the person who would finish the process and actually do the design and and the decor part of it. And so when I finally was like, okay. Can this be something that I do for just other people and other than my friends and family? And because I was doing all of that for free, and then I I was on one episode of a show on HGTV way back a long time ago, and it was like, wow. People are calling me from Miami and New York, and I was in Florida at the time, and they were calling me from LA.

John McClain [00:11:35]:

And I was like, wait a minute. You wanna pay me to come and work for you to do something that I love doing? Okay. This is not computing in my brain, but I like where it's going. And that was a catapult for it all, and then I just started charging for my services, and it was fantastic.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:11:51]:

That's amazing. It's that whole adage of if you love what you do, you never work a day in your life.

John McClain [00:11:55]:

True.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:11:56]:

I was just reading this morning in The Wall Street Journal, and Warren Buffett was talking about his retirement. He did an interview with them, after he announced at the annual shareholder meeting a couple weeks ago that he's out. And it was just so neat what he said at the very end of the article. And I wish almost and I get that they couldn't from a news standpoint, but I wish they would have led with it. But, basically, it was the idea of I'm still gonna be around. I'm still gonna be doing what I'm doing. And I think his exact words were, I'm not gonna be at home watching soap operas. Mhmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:12:24]:

Like, this is still a passion. And to his credit, he just realized that Greg Abel, his predecessor, can do it so much more efficiently than he can. In fact, he said, you know, what Greg can put in in a ten hour day pales in comparison to what I can. I woke up one day and I felt old. It didn't happen till after I was in my nineties, but I felt old. And I thought, what an incredible gift to get to do what you love for how many decades? Over half a century. Like, how many people get the privilege of doing that? And, you know, really, a shout out to your parents for letting you do that because much like your story, I grew up in a 1915 house. And I remember going down to the Ace Hardware store, and we had an account.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:13:03]:

That's back when you could have an account, add anything to it, and they sent an invoice to your house at the end of the month and trusted you were gonna pay said invoice. And I bought stencils, and I remember climbing up on the ladder as a little girl and stenciling in navy and light blue around the perimeter of my room and thinking I had just hit the lottery.

John McClain [00:13:22]:

And I'm

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:13:22]:

sure the ceiling tiles were asbestos, so I didn't disturb those. But really a shout out to your parents too for giving you this space and inviting you down on the Saturdays and letting you take on the Florida House. And, like, how much of that just isn't parents speaking into that space and giving kids the creativity and freedom to figure out who they are and what works for them?

John McClain [00:13:42]:

Yeah. I love that too. And I didn't realize until, as you're saying now, much later in life that it was a gift that they gave me and how that one, quote, permission slip that they gave me to do these things turned into a career for me. And I I would have never known that back in the day. It just seemed fun and interesting, and it lit me up inside. And, oh my god, we would go to this vacation home in Florida, and I would wake up before everybody, like, around four or five in the morning. I'm not joking. And I would get up and I would start painting, and I was doing, like, window treatments.

John McClain [00:14:14]:

I would do every planning that I did before the house woke up, and then they were like, what time did you get up? And I'm like, I think it was 04:30. And but here's the problem. When I first started getting, quote, real clients, I had in my brain that you are supposed to do all of these things, that you are supposed to paint. You are supposed to hang wallpaper. You are supposed to lay tile. And so, like, my first client that would pay me, I did all those things for them. I did everything. And then one day, the client pulled me aside, and he was like, John, I don't know if this is the best use of your time.

John McClain [00:14:42]:

I love what you're doing, but I don't know that you should be laying tile and hanging wallpaper in my powder room. And I was like, he's onto something there. And that's when I decided, let's hire people to do those things and focus on what I'm really good at.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:14:54]:

Which is so brilliant. And that's part of the strategy that's probably allowed you to grow into working with these high value clients. What do you say to the designers out there that are going, I just don't know how to get into it? You know, looking at both sides of it. I see the designer saying that, but I also and we talk a lot about this, but your target market, you have to know their wants and you have to know their needs. And those can be two very different things. What do most, I would say, bread and butter designers miss when it comes to the wants and needs of that luxury client and cracking that nut?

John McClain [00:15:26]:

I think first, Katie Decker-Erickson, it comes to speaking to them the way that they need to be spoken to and the way that they want to be spoken to. You can't be talking about DIY. You can't be talking about buying something at a discounted rate. You're not gonna be talking about trying to undercut someone to get a better deal. That's not what they care about. They care about the timing. They they want a return on their investment for sure. And and I do speak about that a lot to luxury clients because they want to know how they're going to make this money back.

John McClain [00:15:55]:

Even if they never sell this house or they never have intentions of selling this house, they do want to know because they're successful people. They want to know that their money is being put to use in a way that you're going to protect it and guard it and even grow it. And so you go in with that mentality of understanding kind of their language, understanding what is gonna be a pain point for them. And it's the pain points for luxury clients are not the pain points for your run of the mill. I don't mean that in a bad way. I just mean your typical budget conscious client. That is not the same mentality, and and you don't speak to those people in the same way. And it's a mind adjustment on designers' parts when they actually were like, oh, okay, I need to say this versus saying this, and they start to get you and they start to understand like, oh, they really are concerned about my project.

John McClain [00:16:44]:

They really are concerned about how I wanna spend more time with my family, not necessarily how I wanna spend the least amount of money on this project. That's not what they're wanting. And when they know, you know, they are receptive to signing every check and approving almost everything after that point because they feel that you're a part of their world.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:17:02]:

I absolutely love that. And as I'm listening to you, it almost sounds like you're an investment adviser. Like, you're explaining to them, this is going to be your investment. This is the ROI or return on investment you're going to be receiving from that should you choose to sell. There's a 95% get back on landscaping, for instance. Another great Wall Street Journal article from two weeks ago That's cool. About the value of landscape. But, like, you're explaining to them how their money is gonna be used, and then you said another keyword, which I think is so important, which is time.

John McClain [00:17:30]:

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:17:30]:

They hired you to get their time back. So don't bury them in the weeds. Don't drag them through the weeds. Give them their Gantt chart with their process. Keep your project on schedule. And to your point, then they write the check.

John McClain [00:17:41]:

Yes.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:17:42]:

If they trust you, so many of your problems go away.

John McClain [00:17:46]:

Yes. Totally. And that trust is is something that's you don't get it right away. It it builds over time. But if you know those key factors of what is a triggering point for that client and what lights them up, if you find that out during your discovery call and especially during the in home consultation, when you're seeing how the husband and wife, for instance, interact or you're seeing how the children interact with their parents, and then the mom is like, okay, John, what I really want is I want my family to sit around the island, and we have no island. It's not even big enough. And and then I want them here while I'm making dinner. I want them to do their homework there.

John McClain [00:18:24]:

And it's like, oh, that's what you're looking for. You're not concerned about this kitchen is going to cost $400,000. You're concerned about getting your family here at 05:30 or 06:00 to help you make dinner and to have that conversation about what happened during their day. That's what they're looking for. They're not saying, John, find me the lowest price cabinetry company out there. They're saying, John, fix my family.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:18:48]:

100%. And notice the common underpinning of all that is time. This is how I want my time spent. This is what I want my family time to look like. Because you're giving them back time again, and their time is looking the way they want. And I feel like for high value clients, that's it. If you can figure out how to show them that they're getting their time back because of one, the work you're doing for them, but also the lifestyle you're creating for them that maximizes their time. As you said, they're successful people for a reason, and they wanna know that that's gonna be carried over throughout the project.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:19:17]:

So there's different ways to manifest that, which is so important. Let me ask you, how much of your business, once you crack into this market, becomes word-of-mouth? How much of it is still the way, as you said, you talk to them, you communicate with them, your social media messaging, your branding, all the things we talk about from marketing. What does that ratio become word-of-mouth versus marketing directly to this very best client as you say?

John McClain [00:19:44]:

Well, first, I wanna say it's not an overnight process. It's not an overnight success to instantly get your 7 figure clients or whatever your definition of luxury is. Luxury is, whatever your definition of success is for your company, that is not an instant process. I knew where I was going with things. So my branding and my marketing and my messaging, as I said, was integral to the process of moving to these high level luxury projects. So much so that when I went into one client's home this is funny. Her husband was there. It was a consultation, and she was like, yeah.

John McClain [00:20:18]:

John is the number one designer in the country. And I was like, Emma? Where did you read that? I have no I have no idea who. I have I don't know where she read it. I don't know

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:20:28]:

where which John. Right.

John McClain [00:20:30]:

But I was like, I paused for a minute, and I was like, oh, thank you so much. And I was like, if she believes that and if she feels that in her heart of hearts that I am the number one designer in the country and whatever she I mean, maybe my mom told her. I don't know. I'm sure she would say that.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:20:45]:

But No. You think you're pretty great, John.

John McClain [00:20:48]:

She would do that. Yeah. But if she felt that and it resonated with her, I knew at that moment, my marketing and my branding was doing exactly what I wanted it to do. Whatever article I was in, whatever magazine I was featured in, whatever I had been say online, on socials, I knew that the message was getting out there. And so that probably took, I would say, three, four years to get to that point of changing my marketing and my messaging to speak to that person. And but when that happened, I knew it was working and I knew that I was just sort of I call it autopilot marketing, where you're just on autopilot. You're just doing what you do naturally. You're saying what you say naturally at events or in front of clients or even with other designers.

John McClain [00:21:30]:

You're putting your best foot forward, and it just happens on autopilot. And when you're just rolling it off the tongue and it sounds so easy and you're not having to think about it, that's when you know you're onto something. That's when you know that, okay, good. I got my messaging down, and then people will start to say yes to you. But, yeah, it was a eye opening moment, but also one that I just took that and said, okay, How can I even grow this further? What can I do now to make my brand stand out even more? But to your point too, the referrals are are a huge part of it. And one luxury client is also, of course, going to know other luxury clients, and they're going to have people who work with their company or they're going to have people that is down the street from them. And if they come into their house, this is what happens to us a lot. They'll come into their home, and their neighbor will love what we did to our clients' homes.

John McClain [00:22:16]:

And who did this? How did they oh my god. This was so different. Because sometimes in, track home communities where it's like the same home, same home on the outside, on the exterior, you get a neighbor who comes into my client's home, and they're like, wow. Your house looked just like mine, you know, six months ago, and now it looks totally different. You'd elevated it. And so that is where that referrals and and word-of-mouth really start to help.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:22:39]:

Okay. You had a total nugget in there, and I think so many designers need to hear this. It took three to four years. This was not an overnight success. And in our current economic environment, I feel like so many companies, not just interior design, but across the board go, oh, I don't have the pipeline I want. Let's cut marketing. And Mhmm. Oh, this is my favorite thing to coach too or one of them.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:23:02]:

Do not cut marketing. Do not cut marketing. If you hear one thing from this podcast, it takes time. You heard John say it three to four years. And Katie Decker-Erickson is saying do not cut marketing because it is an inertia business. They need to see your brand. They need to feel your brand. They need to hear from your brand on average 16 times before they're like, that's a brand and that's even a thing, let alone want to engage with it.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:23:26]:

And so the fact that you hung in there for three to four years, I sometimes think, like most industries, it's just about perseverance and showing up over and over and over again that gets you where you wanna be. Let's talk about visibility for a minute because I love this conversation that you brought up when you submitted your two truths and a lie. This was in there. But you said, I see so many talented designers and creatives struggle to be seen. How do they start showing up boldly? Because it is a bold move to to say, I'm gonna commit to something three to four years that sometimes is longer than most marriages. It's certainly long enough to have a kid and get them to preschool. How do you encourage them to show up in a more bold and meaningful way?

John McClain [00:24:11]:

The steps that people bypass, again, is going back to understanding what their core values are. A lot of designers never stop to even ask themselves what matters to me. Am I okay with working with this type of client? Am I okay even with working with this tradesperson? So I sat down, and, again, there was always that moment where these things happen where you're like, oh, I need to change that. So I was with a client, and it was a consultation and it was just kind of like dude's dude, you know, whatever man's man, whatever they want to say, like, you know, bachelor guy. He was like, Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But he loved my designs and everything. And I found myself avoiding the subject of saying my husband. I never said my husband.

John McClain [00:24:50]:

I would always say, you know, my significant other or my spouse or whatever. And I was like, mid sentence, I was like, John, what the hell are you doing? Why are you afraid of showing someone who you are when they already liked what you do, the final product of your designs?

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:25:06]:

For sure.

John McClain [00:25:07]:

Show them who you are. Speak your truth. Say your words exactly from your heart. And I did it. I stopped myself I said, actually, it's my husband, and you would love him. He's so great. He's funny. And then and it turns out not only did he love my husband, we went over for weekend parties and all the things.

John McClain [00:25:22]:

And if I had never said those things, that client would have never connected with me. So I think the boldness comes from just, honestly, being truthful to yourself and knowing who you are. And I say that old phrase, if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything. And I think that when you don't have a platform to stand on and it could be as simple as, again, just being truthful about your personal life. I'm not saying pull out your dirty laundry and air that to the world, but I am saying to be authentically yourself and start with that. And I think that is a bold move for a lot of people because you're scrolling Instagram or you're going to someone's website, every project looks the same. Every header on their website is the same thing. Right? Nothing is differentiating them from anybody else.

John McClain [00:26:05]:

And I'm like, okay. Why would I want to work with you as a customer if you can do the same as this person? It it makes no sense. So show me something that makes you different. Talk about that publicly. Talk about that with your clients. Talk about that on your social media. Definitely talk about that on your website, and just spend the time now in those years where you're, you know, working up to that very best client, that luxury client that you're wanting. Spend that time honing that and really knowing who you are and understanding who you are.

John McClain [00:26:35]:

That's the key, I think.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:26:37]:

I love that. Intuition. Intuition is everything. Like, sometimes I will override it even to this day, and then I'm like, gosh, darn it. Why didn't I listen to myself? I knew this was a bad idea. And I find myself just chewing myself out internally and just being like, you knew you shouldn't have done that. You did it anyway. So have you ever taken on a high value client that you regretted taking on that you're like, I knew intuitively they may have had the value, but it wasn't a good fit.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:27:06]:

That's even harder when you know they have the killer checkbook, but you're like, this is going to be we call them PETA clients, but paying in the clients, we actually have a PITA tax for those clients. No matter how much the tax is, when we get to the end of the job, we're like, never again. Absolutely never again. And so we've just started walking away, but that takes twenty years of being in the trade to have. Yeah. And I really am humbled to say that luxury.

John McClain [00:27:31]:

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:27:31]:

Have you ever done that? And how did you process through that? Because when you do crack that nut, there are still people at this threshold that you don't wanna work with.

John McClain [00:27:39]:

No. I've never had a bad client ever in my whole life. There's the lie right there. Okay. Going back again to the values and the traits that I'm looking for. I have what I call my defining traits filter, where I run clients through Mhmm. Traits, and I run other people that I want to associate with my company through this filter of traits that I recognize are are important to me. And I didn't have that early on.

John McClain [00:28:01]:

I was just looking at the dollar, or I was looking at the house size, or I was looking at the house worth on Zillow and and just going towards that, and ego got in the way. So I think the thing that designers don't stop and check themselves on is their ego. Are you signing this client or wanting to sign this client because you think it's going to appear in a magazine? Or are you wanting to sign this client because it's a $10,000,000 home? And then you forget about all the other things that you're noticing and that you are asking yourself, you know, back to your intuition. Is this right? Is this wrong? Like, I feel something there. Should I address it? And I had a client that I didn't ask those questions to. I was enamored by the size of the home, and it was going fine for a while. And then all of a sudden, the client just totally blew up at me one day. And in front of everybody in the home yeah.

John McClain [00:28:48]:

In front of everyone in the home, about one little thing. Right? About one little thing. So I was like, come with me. We're going to leave this room of six people, and we're going to go to this room of us two, and we're going to have this conversation and and work this out. So it all ended up fine at the end of the day, and it was all things that contractually she was obligated to do. But I asked myself at that point, what did I miss, you know, during that retrospective at the end of every project? Like, what did we miss, guys? What did we miss with this client that is different than the other project that we just finished that was perfectly great all the way through. It was it respect? Was it respect of our time? Was it respect of our process? You know, I'm very big on processes and sharing the process, and we start here and we end here. Here's where we are today, and here's where we're gonna be next week.

John McClain [00:29:34]:

And did we miss a step there? So it always points back to the designer when you have a client. I hate the term red flag, for instance, because it's like, it's not the client's red flag, sister. It is your red flag for not doing what you should have done in the beginning.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:29:48]:

Yes. Yes. I feel that. You know? And and listening and following, but also having a set of must haves and can't stands. I love that you have a filter. I think so many times as designers, especially if you're just starting out, there's this insecurity quotient of, like, they want me. They really, really want me. Right? Mhmm.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:30:06]:

And it's like, no. No. No. No. No. You also get to hire them.

John McClain [00:30:09]:

Yes.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:30:10]:

You get to choose your clients, and it might not feel that way out of the gate. But trust me, if you don't, you're gonna pay for it on the back end either with that cataclysmic blow up in front of a kajillion people, or it's gonna cost you money if you don't have your processes in place. The reality is, like, yes. Figure out your processes and filter the people who come knocking at your door. Mhmm.

John McClain [00:30:31]:

They

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:30:31]:

may want you, but just like any dating relationship, you may not want to be in bed with them to use your language, which I think is dead on.

John McClain [00:30:38]:

Yeah. And by the way, I apply that filter to any team member that I want to hire. I apply that filter to a tile installer, to a general contractor. It's the same filter because my values don't change, but that person still may not align with that. So I just want to tell everyone, once you know what those values are, run everyone through that filter, put everyone in that funnel. And then if it doesn't pan out, then move on to the next.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:31:01]:

A %. And speaking of feelings, let's talk about AI. Because AI has brought up a lot of feelings of, oh, dear. Everything is changing. Social media feels very saturated

John McClain [00:31:13]:

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:31:13]:

To your point of you can end up looking like every other designer out there. How do you stand out? You've done a great job of doing this in your business, especially in a luxury market, because I feel like the funnel gets tighter the higher on the food pyramid you go, so to speak. How have you figured out how to stand out in a meaningful and significant way that resonates with your best client?

John McClain [00:31:34]:

Well, it's funny you say everyone is using it, and you can tell because I'm like, you couldn't put two words together last week, and suddenly you're so fluent. You can write a paragraph about your visit to Target. Like, I don't even know how you're doing this. Like and then it was like upset. You're doing AI. But, yeah, it is becoming like this thing where it could become a pandemic of sorts, I think, where people just totally rely on it to regurgitate the information back to them, and then they're posting it. And then suddenly everyone's messaging, like you said, sounds the same or appears to be the same. I'm getting emails from people, and I'm like, okay.

John McClain [00:32:07]:

This is totally AI. There's no personality in this whatsoever. So I like to say it's sort of my assistant. It's sort of there if I need it. It's sort of there if I want to incorporate parts of it. And I do use it. I love it. But I set my up.

John McClain [00:32:21]:

I have these personal, chats that I set up under my own. You'd probably know this. You put the information in and then creates your personalized chat. But even that, I'm like, that doesn't really sound like me. So I take what it says. I basically use it for the structuring of it. So let's say I'm writing an email, let's say, a mass email to one of my coaching programs or to my design clients, whatever. I'll have the email put in, and then I'm like, oh, okay.

John McClain [00:32:43]:

That makes sense. You formatted it in the introduction, and then you have the bullet points here. And then I'll take that and just revise it to be my own language. So, again, it's my assistant. It's not my employee. It's not a full time thing that I bring in consistently, but I do use it as a guide, and it's very helpful. Once it understands you, it is very helpful at giving you the sort of the guideline, the benchmark to follow.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:33:07]:

Totally.

John McClain [00:33:08]:

And then you just adjust it from there. But don't send anything out that sounds like a robot or it sounds like something that someone else wrote. Right? Like, make sure you put your personal stamp on it. It's the whole reason I just rebranded my own podcast and my own coaching to The McLane Method because I want people to know it's me. It's not a robot. It's personalized. And I will tell you something too. Up until recently, until this whole AI thing has happened, I was very big on my own students in my program telling them, hey.

John McClain [00:33:36]:

Don't make your company name yourself. Make your company name Zenith Properties or whatever. Right? Come up with a name. And then now I'm like, no. No. No. The way we have personalized our companies, the way we have personalized our brands, and and personalized our messaging, yeah, they know that there's a real person behind it, and that is what is going to make you stand out in this world of AI and robots.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:33:57]:

It is insane how much it's taking over our world. In fact, it was interesting. My daughter gets a little magazine called This Week Junior, and they have Back to Truths and Lies. I want that. I know. I enjoy reading it. True story. And they have this machine in there that washes you.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:34:13]:

You literally walk in and it showers you. They set this up as the kids. Is this a true or is this a false? And we're reading it together. And so you walk in, it analyzes your skin, chooses the correct water temperature and the correct detergent slash soap that you need, and then cleans you. And fifteen minutes later, you walk out feeling like a new human. And I looked at her and I said, do you think that's real? And she goes, of course. It was a no brainer to her. And then, of course, she flipped the page to find out whether it's real.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:34:43]:

It's real.

John McClain [00:34:43]:

Oh, my god. It's totally real.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:34:45]:

What? It's straight up real. The technology came out of Japan, like, ten years ago, and AI just had to catch up to analyze what your skin needs, which just blows my mind. So and I think as designers, I once was talking to Gil Dobie, and we were chatting, and she's like, designers statistically are late adopters.

John McClain [00:35:02]:

Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:35:02]:

But this is one of those things where the train has left the station and you really should get on it because otherwise, you're laying on the tracks.

John McClain [00:35:08]:

You are.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:35:08]:

Because it's gonna take over every single aspect of our lives and how we do business. But I think your point is really well made and that you do not want to use this as your crutch. No. It can be the nitro in your car and make you go faster, but it can't be the main event. And I just put it under the eighty twenty. Get you 80% of the way there. But that 20% edit, like, you're talking about is so important because your clients will sense that, and they will know it.

John McClain [00:35:35]:

Yeah. I do the same on an install. I tell clients, okay. We're gonna plan about 85% of this in our office with you in presentations, but there's gonna be that 15 to 20% that we get to your house, and we're like, oh, no. That's not what we had in mind. That's totally wrong. Same thing with AI as you say. Use that rule.

John McClain [00:35:53]:

I think that's a great rule to follow, and I think that's something that people could easily remember as they're typing things in is, like, use it as helper, not as the final thing. And and it's funny you mentioned, like, get on the train or you're gonna miss it. It's it's true. If you don't understand the capabilities of AI, and if you don't understand what it can and can't do, and everyone else is moving forward with that, and your company is having your head in the sand and either not caring or not taking the time to understand it, you're going to be left behind because I think there's three major things that happen in the, like, the technology world. It was first the industrial revolution. Right? That was a huge one. The invention of the Internet, that was a massive thing. And now I really think AI is that third component of that that's going to revolutionize how the world operates.

John McClain [00:36:39]:

And, again, if you're not on board, you're gonna miss out, and your company is going to be left in the dust by everyone else who does get it.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:36:46]:

I so agree. In fact, there was a great episode of sixty minutes with Scott Pelley two weeks ago, And they were talking to the gentleman who won a Nobel Peace Prize for his understanding of so many things, but he was talking about AI in general. And he is predicting that within ten years, we will have a cure to disease, and I mean cancers. I mean, when you talk about the inertia and moments I mean, it totally a geek out moment, but he was talking about I used to take ten years to model a protein. And because of AI, like, 250 proteins have already been modeled, which is the basis of life, which would then can get us to curing diseases. And and so when you extrapolate that to design, it's like, oh, gosh. Yes. If it's doing medical miracles or what feels like medical miracles to all of us lay people, It's like, oh my gosh.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:37:33]:

Figure out how to use it in your business. If not, call John or I. We will help you.

John McClain [00:37:37]:

Yeah. And even now too, Katie Decker-Erickson. Like, I think that the e design industry is really the ones who should pay attention to AI and AI technology and what it's doing because those people are definitely going to be left behind if you don't add some personalization level to your services because now you can go into an AI bot and really have your whole room design. It can give you links of where to purchase things, and it does the entire package for you. So I urge people, understand it at least on the basic level, and then maybe sit down in front of your computer thirty minutes a week and just play around with it and really know what it does and talk intelligently about it and understand that, then tweak your business model to where you are standing out and that you are not an AI robot. Be personal, personal, personal.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:38:25]:

That's such wise advice. If you had one final word to say to that designer sitting there going, John, I hear you, and I'm just scared to do it. I want my very best client. What would you say to them?

John McClain [00:38:39]:

Know who you are, say who you are, and stand by who you are, period.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:38:45]:

That's brilliant. Okay. We're gonna wrap up with our two truths and a lie because these were so good.

John McClain [00:38:49]:

Okay.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:38:50]:

So just to refresh everyone's memory. One, I wrote for Fashion Police for Us Weekly magazine. Two, I once told the client we couldn't work together after I saw what she wore to the consultation. Or three, I dropped out of design school one semester away from graduating and then was designing for an a list celebrity four days later. Alright, John. Drum roll. What are the truths? What's the lie?

John McClain [00:39:14]:

Well, the first one is true. I did write for Us Weekly Fashion Police for a few years. That was fun.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:39:21]:

Well done, sir.

John McClain [00:39:22]:

Yep. That was a fun gig. I I kinda miss it. I was channeling my inner Joan Rivers every week when the magazine came out. Right?

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:39:29]:

Don't you know it?

John McClain [00:39:30]:

Yep. And the other truth is I dropped out of design school, and I was in a celebrity's home three or four days later designing for them. Yeah. So the lie is I told a client that we couldn't work on her project based upon what she was wearing. Not that I've not thought about that and not that I've regretted

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:39:46]:

to say. Yes. I was thinking this as I was going to a board meeting the other day in my, like, black and blue leggings because that's just kind of the day I was having, but I was gonna be there. And then I was like, wow. I really showed up to a board meeting in black and blue leggings with a blue sweatshirt. Okay. This might not be my final moment. Yeah.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:40:05]:

Have you ever had a client come in like that and had them turn out though to be a killer amazing client?

John McClain [00:40:10]:

Yeah. And the thing is when you get that trust built, you can tell them that three months later, oh, we're gonna go through your closet and we're gonna, like, just get rid of all the ugly things in there and we're gonna make you even better than what you are now. So you can get that trust level going, then you tell them, but don't tell them on the first visit.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:40:25]:

But Right.

John McClain [00:40:26]:

I thought about that because I really had wanted to do that before, so that was why that became

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:40:30]:

my lie. I love that. Well, when you wrote for, like, Us Weekly Fashion Police, you have the authority to be able to say, and we're gonna do your closet too.

John McClain [00:40:39]:

I told myself I did.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:40:41]:

Yeah. That's pretty spiffy, I think we can say. Oh, this is such a good conversation, John McClain. Thank you from the bottom of our heart. It means the world, and hopefully, our audience found so many things to take away today. I know I sure did.

John McClain [00:40:53]:

I loved it. So fun, so interesting. And you're gonna be on my podcast very soon, so they can come over there and hear you on mine.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:40:59]:

I'm so excited to have the conversation.

John McClain [00:41:01]:

Me too.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:41:02]:

It's such a good one. Thank you, sir.

John McClain [00:41:03]:

Awesome. Thanks, Katie Decker-Erickson.

Katie Decker-Erickson [00:41:06]:

And that's the closing bell. I hope you've gathered valuable insight from our conversation today, equipping you to thrive in your interior design business. Don't forget to hit that follow button to never miss an episode. And if you have burning questions or specific topics you're curious about, explore our episode library or better yet, book a strategy session directly with me at colorworks dot coach.