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Design Heals: The Secret Sauce Top Designers Are Using to Charge More: Transcript

August 13, 202528 min read

katie [00:00:00]:

Starts now. Hey, Mike, welcome to the show.

Mike [00:00:03]:

Hey, Katie, how you doing? Good to talk to you.

katie [00:00:06]:

Thank you for coming on because I'm so excited to have this conversation about neuroesthetics, biophilia, science and design, all of these things, but more importantly, how to use them to differentiate ourselves in our market as designers and be more profitable, especially watching what's going on in the economy right now. So just out of the gate, what does science and design even encompass?

Mike [00:00:30]:

Well, science and design is essentially an educational and marketing platform that helps interior designers realize the fact that they indeed improve health. For a long time, we've always felt that designers make their clients feel better. But now with this whole new world of neuro aesthetics affecting and becoming a significant part of our design business, science actually is now documenting the fact that when we create beauty as an industry, we improve health. We lower heart rate, we lower blood pressure, we can now scan and measure. When we see something of beauty, a portion of our brain lights up. And that confirms the fact that when a designer creates beauty, she improves the health of their client. It's one of the most exciting discoveries for the world of design today in many, many years compared to many, many years ago. It's exciting, it's changing, it's actually validating for the interior designer to know that science is confirming that they improve health.

katie [00:01:31]:

It's amazing to think about because I think we've intuitively known it all along, but there's also this understanding of or this perception. What you do is frou frou. It almost just makes light of it. And now to have the scientific backing of like, no, you're actually making a fundamental, important scientific change in your clients lives. Don't write a prescription for a pill. Write a prescription for a better environment. Is that what I'm hearing you say?

Mike [00:01:57]:

It's interesting you say that because in 2018, the Medical association in Canada authorized doctors to begin prescribing time spent in art galleries and museums.

katie [00:02:08]:

Amazing.

Mike [00:02:09]:

It is now a medicine in Canada. So instead of being given a bottle of Xanax, you're told, go spend time in art galleries to enjoy the beauty.

katie [00:02:18]:

You know, it's funny you should say that. I'll never forget my daughter. When she was probably about six years old, we were walking through the fine art museum in Phoenix and she was walking by piece after piece after piece and she stopped at this one piece and she didn't move. And I thought, that's so fascinating. What is that piece? What is that that has captured her? And it was one of Monet's water lilies.

Mike [00:02:38]:

And there you go.

katie [00:02:39]:

It just was amazing. Out of this entire menagerie of artists, all of which, you know, don't get me wrong, they had a reason to be there. But even to this day, how many years later that a little six year old's eye would be still captured by Monet with no idea who Monet is? No idea. But the beauty and the essence of beauty was still resonating in her little body.

Mike [00:03:02]:

Yeah, you know, we survived over the millennia because we sought out pleasure and beauty. And so it's encoded in our DNA. And these are reports from the University of Pennsylvania, Johns Hopkins University, the Mayo Clinic. All of them have confirmed that we have to find beauty. Now look at the advantage that there is for an interior designer. The interior designer is providing an element of a person's life that is fundamentally needed. It's not an elective, it's not a passive interest. It's a fundamental need to surround ourselves with beauty.

katie [00:03:36]:

I'm just sitting here letting that resonate for a minute. I mean, talk about adding weight and bulk to what we do and just that fundamental desire, which is why I think our industry will never go out of style. Because people want a place that feels good and what that means to different people is obviously different, but that's that fundamental desire. It kind of takes us into that conversation about neuro aesthetics, which is really the overarching umbrella of the idea of science and design. Break down neuro aesthetics for everyone listening today.

Mike [00:04:08]:

Okay, yeah, it's a fun word, it's a new word in our lexicon. But if you break the word down, neuro means phys, physiological and the brain. And aesthetics of course is beauty, nature and fine design. And so neuro aesthetics is a spinoff of neuroscience and again it's changing the landscape of interior design today. Science now looks at our industry and considers us to be an alternative health resource. And that's a phrase that we need to begin to internalize and start using. There's a great quote from the head of environmental medicine at the University of Texas, Dr. Claudia Miller, and her quote is architects and designers have a greater ability to improve public health than medical professionals.

katie [00:04:51]:

That's insane to think about.

Mike [00:04:53]:

Let that resonate for a minute. That's game changing for our industry. Doctors, the people that we trust with our health are saying that we have a greater ability to improve health than they do. The center for Innovation at the Mayo Clinic, Dr. Douglas Wood says the future of medicine is in the home.

katie [00:05:10]:

Isn't that incredible to think about?

Mike [00:05:12]:

It is. That's why I say it's so exciting.

katie [00:05:15]:

Well, it makes me smile because it just feels so validating to what we do. We know makes a difference in people's lives, but to have the science to back it is incredible. And you know, speaking of lexicons and words that get thrown around, another one that we've heard come in and out of our industry that's gaining more traction is this idea of biophilia. How does biophilia interface with neuro aesthetics and what's the core correlation there?

Mike [00:05:39]:

Well, biophilia essentially is our love of nature. And biophilic design is bringing real nature or the representations of nature into the home. And again, biophilia is a subsegment in my mind of neuro aesthetics because it's related to our evolutionary inheritance. We are nature. We forget that we surround ourselves with all these artificial elements, like big buildings and non natural elements, which are really in many ways unhealthy for us because we need nature. It's where we were born 3.6 billion years ago. That's what biophilia is and, and that's why it's so badly needed in the home today.

katie [00:06:19]:

It's so interesting you should say that. I'm reflecting back on a trip I had to Argentina and walking through the cities, not the rural areas, but the cities of Argentina, it's been around so long that there's so much pavement and so many hard surfaces. And I'll never forget landing there in Buenos Aires and walking out and being like, where is the grass? Can I find a tree? I mean, because Buenos Aires is just huge. And so just to stand in that space and then you like, you go below grade and like there's floors that descend down into the city, which is fascinating, but it's all like a marble or a limestone or like it's all these different hard surfaces. And I just felt uncomfortable. And that was 25 years ago. And I just remember thinking like, this just doesn't feel right to me. And it was like this agitation and it took like two or three days to figure out what it was.

katie [00:07:17]:

And then I was like, I just need a tree.

Mike [00:07:19]:

Yeah, look at what we've done to ourselves over the last hundred years. Look at the many of the urban centers that we have in our country today. The tall skyscrapers, the plate glass windows, all of them lacking detail and ornamentation. And compared to what we find in nature, our need for patterns and design elements that are non existent. You know what's interesting is that we grew up As a species, with the rabbits and the deer and the plants in the trees, we're supposed to be the evolved species. But the rabbits and the deer are still in their natural habitat. We are not.

katie [00:07:52]:

That's a fascinating thing. In fact, there's this, and I'm sure you're very familiar with it, but I've been observing these new type of science where we're actually biomimicring in design, like what bees are doing and the power of the shape of their combs, their honeycombs, and watching ants and designing based off that. Because to your point, it's actually far more advanced than anything we're creating at the moment. And there's a reason why. And so to go back in. And actually, this whole idea of, I don't know, can we use the word devolving, but, like, getting back to, like, nature and pulling back on what we think has been elevated design and returning it to something that is actually familiar is so grounding literally and figuratively for people.

Mike [00:08:38]:

Well, from a health perspective as well, one of the reasons that biophilic design has become so popular and is becoming the darling of the residential design world is that the major corporations and hospitals around the world have learned the health benefits of biophilic design. There's a hospital in Singapore called the Kutek Phuat Hospital. It is the standard for biophilically designed hospitals in the world. And every square foot is considered under the biophilic elements approach. You have Maggie Center, a cancer institute in St James University in London, 100% biophilic. You have your major corporations in this country. Apple has a new $6 billion headquarters. It is 100% biophilically designed.

Mike [00:09:27]:

Every workstation has access to natural sunlight and greenery. Microsoft is building conference rooms and treetops. Amazon has 390 different species of plant life in their headquarters.

katie [00:09:38]:

Amazing.

Mike [00:09:39]:

And this is important for the interior designer. They're doing it because they want to increase creativity, and they know they do. They want to increase productivity, and they know they do. And that ultimately leads to an increase in what? Profitability.

katie [00:09:53]:

That makes complete sense. How does that translate into the home environment? And the random question I have, Mike, is, can I use faux plants and still get the same effect? Can we use faux elements of nature and still get the same biochemical internal impact?

Mike [00:10:10]:

According to Terpene Bright Green and Bill Browning, who heads up Terrapin Bright Green, which is the consulting firm that leads the world on biophilic design, biomimicry is indeed important. You can paint a wall, okay. Making it look Like a nature setting, and it has a demonstrative impact on your body and mind. So, yes, biomimicry and real nature. But remember, biophilic design is not just the visual. There's something in biophilic design called prospect and refuge. And it's a throwback to our days in our caves where we were safe and secure, but we had a view to the outside world, the prospect of the rest of the world. And you see that today in window seats.

Mike [00:10:51]:

You know, where you're sitting on a window seat, you're enjoying your glass of chardonnay, reading a book, listening to music, but you have a view to the outside world. That is a very comfortable and rewarding and calming place to be. Also, when we walk into a restaurant and. And there's nobody in the restaurant, do you choose the table in the middle of the room? No, never. You choose the table against the wall so that you have your back to the wall with a view to the rest of the room. It's all, again, encoded in our DNA. It's a sense of safety and security, prospect and refuge.

katie [00:11:25]:

It's interesting.

Mike [00:11:26]:

It's very interesting. But that's just one of the design elements inside of Biophilia. So it doesn't have to be green, it doesn't have to be a picture of nature. There are elements like fire and running water. And there's something called organized complexity. You know, our brains are perfect examples of organized complexity. So we need to find and we seek out complex images that are organized. Think about it for a minute.

Mike [00:11:54]:

How boring is a straight line? Yeah, it doesn't become interesting to us until it has movement and curves and fluidity. And so that's what we seek out as a human.

katie [00:12:04]:

So two questions. One, how do I incorporate this into my designs as a residential designer? And then also, how do I make it profitable and educate my clients that this matters? Because I think a lot of them, yes, they want a beautiful home that feels good. They don't understand there's actual science and that the person you trust to your point in your quote, to come in and do your home could be more powerful than your doctor. How do we explain this to our clients in a way that elevates us, differentiates us, it becomes a marketing tool, and also it builds trust with our ideal client.

Mike [00:12:39]:

I think the first step is you must learn about this. In order to have the confidence, you need to have the knowledge, and you need to be able to speak to the knowledge. And there are a couple of publications that I always recommend. There's one by the architect Don Ruggles called Beauty, Neuroscience and Architecture. There's one by Stephen Keller called Designing for Health. And there's also Nature Inside by Terek and Bright Green. Those are excellent places to start talking about neuro aesthetics and biophilic design. The thing about biophilic design, again to remember is are the health principles.

Mike [00:13:14]:

There's a study that was done by the Rusk Institute in New York where they prescribed for 107 different cardiac patients time spent in a nursery. Not just to walk through the nursery, but to literally put their hands in dirt and plant flowers for 30 minutes. The result was a decrease in heart rate of 5 beats per minute.

katie [00:13:34]:

That's significant.

Mike [00:13:35]:

That's very significant, especially for cardiac patients. And so there are multiple studies like that done by institutions. So you're talking about biophilic design not just from the way it looks, but, but because of the health principles that it provides.

katie [00:13:50]:

And when you're explaining that to your ideal client, how do you not put the fear of God in them? That like I'm more powerful than your doctor and not sound like a complete crazy person, but also explain to them like, who you choose to bring into your home and design this space is deeply important and will have significant impact on you and your family.

Mike [00:14:09]:

I think you start talking about it right up front. There are a couple of. I have a certification program in science and design and a couple hundred designers have now taken the program and it's changing the way they talk and their headlines on their websites. A couple of headlines on their websites are our science based design approach. Another one is Bridging interior design and health, the new paradigm for design. And a last one, neuro aesthetics, the science of how beauty and art affect our minds. So anybody, any consumer coming to your website will already be exposed to the language that you're speaking. And quite frankly, especially coming out of the pandemic, health and wellness and well being has become an important element of life at home.

Mike [00:14:53]:

And so you will already be speaking the language of that consumer. So that's one of the ways to start bridging science and the design that you're going to offer your client.

katie [00:15:04]:

Well, and one of the things I love to talk about is ontological design. I wrote a publication for Neocon a year or so ago about it. But just the idea that we don't just design spaces and this is exactly what you're describing, they design us back. And it's interesting to see how if you put people in different environments, their behavior changes, the way they respond to things changes and especially it was even interesting, we once did a kids shelter actually for kids in the foster care program and redesigned that space. And they're like, we have so many behavioral problems and we have so many challenges. All these kids are on an immense amount of medication. It's a whole thing. And so we calmed everything down.

katie [00:15:44]:

They actually had read in the dining room. I'm like, really? That's the worst idea. Like, we need to calm all this way down and go to blues. Like we were gonna go. Classic spa palette. It was fascinating. After we got through with it, to check in later, the behavioral problems had significantly reduced since we had done that.

Mike [00:16:03]:

Sure.

katie [00:16:04]:

And we elevated the kitchen. It had natural woods in it and it felt like a home to them, which is a designer. That's what I wanted to give them. Because who knows, if these kids, some of them were aging out of the program, they might never have a quote unquote home. And I thought, man, what a golden opportunity. But to see that happen firsthand, it's just undeniable that there's this interface. Okay, so blatant honest question, Mike, can we charge more for this as designers?

Mike [00:16:31]:

Virtually every one of the designers that I've worked with has increased their hourly rate because their value proposition has changed so significantly. When you're the designer in a marketplace and you're talking about science backed design, that the foundation of your design business is now born in science. In fact, the future of design, we are now believing, is born in science. And so if you're the one talking about that, if you're the early adopter, then you do have an advantage over others, and I think that's really important. And I want to go back to your last comment about the impact of the environment. There's a great quote from Sarah Robinson, an architect out of Italy who leads this subject matter. She says, we cannot touch without being touched in return.

katie [00:17:16]:

That's beautiful.

Mike [00:17:17]:

And so it's a reminder that the environment is always having an impact on us every second of every day.

katie [00:17:24]:

You know, it's interesting because people think, oh, I don't need an interior designer. My home is fine. And I want to say, yeah, it's fine, but it's also making you fine. Are you okay being fine? Or do you want to feel grounded? Do you want to feel creative? Do you want to feel inspired? What is it that you're going for in this space? If you're fine with fine, then expect fine outputs. But if you want something elevated, we're going to have to create an elevated space for that. Because it really. There's this interaction that fundamentally happens and you can pretend it's not happening. We often talk about this when I'm coaching other interior designers about the culture of their business.

katie [00:18:00]:

You can pretend it's not there. The reality is a culture will form. It is undeniable. I think the same is true of the interaction with any design we create. There is going to be an interaction if you're in this space. I'll never forget my husband, actually, in a different art museum, walked into this beautiful light exhibit with all mirrors by a Japanese artist who's incredible. And he walked out and he was actually crying. And he's not a crier.

katie [00:18:24]:

And it was just fascinating to watch him be so moved to walk into this expansive space. It's all dark, with lights hanging down and mirrors everywhere, where you just feel like you're a very small portion of a very big universe. And it's just one room, but you can't tell when you walk in. And to have him walk out in that feeling, it was such a beautiful moment for him to realize the power of what I do and what our industry does. I think in creating places that you're going to be impacted one way or another. So you might as well pick your impact.

Mike [00:18:52]:

Well, you know, the design is never neutral.

katie [00:18:55]:

Yes.

Mike [00:18:55]:

It can either harm you or it can help you. You know, design can act. If it's designed correctly, design can act as an accelerant for good health. We need to start thinking about designing for health, not just for beauty. We need to start designing. Think of our industry as a health institute. The client can nest themselves, cradle themselves in an environment that actually was designed to improve the health of that client. It's pretty much a seismic shift compared to 20 years ago.

katie [00:19:26]:

Huge.

Mike [00:19:26]:

You know, we lower heart rate, we lower blood pressure. Let's internalize, take advantage of it and get. Start getting credit for it, for heaven's sake.

katie [00:19:34]:

Absolutely. I mean, to think about that, those levels of outputs, and now that it's actually quantifiable. Right. We've been able to quantify the impact. That is an absolutely huge, huge game changer. So once we start and we meet with our ideal client, it starts on our website, this vernacular, and it carries through to our proposal packet, our education throughout and along the way with the client. How do we wrap it up and how do we use it as a marketing tool on future projects? When it comes to this concept, do you feel that most designers who implement this, by the time they're done with their client, there's Such a profound understanding. They can't imagine doing something else.

katie [00:20:12]:

Or is it something that you have to build into your process throughout the way?

Mike [00:20:16]:

I think it's something you have to build into your process because the frequent reminder of why you're. You're using this color or you're building this hallway this way. There's something in Biophilia called modes of mystery. You know, what's around the corner. It's a basic design element. You know, what's behind the trees on the right as we would walk through the forest over the millions of years? You know, there's a sense of where's the unexpected, a sense of awe and wonder. So that's a design element that you want to include in your process and that needs to be explained to the client along the way. And in terms of marketing, I've already given you a couple of the headlines from websites.

Mike [00:20:52]:

These designers are including it in their Instagram posting, in LinkedIn, in their magazine advertising. So that's the marketing aspect. And again, the early adopters are out there ahead of the game. And 10 years from now, I pretty much suspect that this will become much more normal with most designers, because those who are last to get in will be wondering what happened over the last 10 years. You know, they'll still be selling timeless design. I hate that phrase. I mean, it's just so overused.

katie [00:21:25]:

Yeah, no, it's interesting. As you're talking, I'm thinking about, like, all the meandering pathways that you see and how much more exciting those are. Or even in city design, when they just put power lines below grade so you don't have to look at those and you can actually see the trees. Again, like all of these curiosity moments. What would you say to an interior designer? Obviously they need to go through a program. There's so many elements to this. And because it is so scientific and you can and should directly impact people's health, and that comes with a whole ethical component to it. But what would you say to someone listening to this conversation? Like, what are three elements that they can implement into their designs now? Integrating neuro aesthetics, biophilia, this concept, they can noticeably see the difference in their designs and what they can sell to their clients?

Mike [00:22:13]:

Well, I have to say up front that I'm not an interior designer, so I can give you the knowledge of what is important, and that is, I would certainly take on the world of biophilia. I would definitely include biophilic design in your approach because of all of the things that we've already talked about. It's beautiful because, remember, nature is the original beauty. You know, a hundred thousand years ago, it was only nature. It was the five points on a maple leaf. You know, it was the babbling brook. These are design elements that can be included in a home. Today, samples.

Mike [00:22:46]:

I would also start including fractal patterning.

katie [00:22:49]:

I love patterns. So now you're talking my language. Go down that path.

Mike [00:22:53]:

A lot of designers are using fractals, but they don't really know what a fractal is. Fractals are essentially geometric shapes and forms that are consistent in a pattern design, but they ascend or descend in scale. So a typical fractal would be something like a fern. You know, at the tip of the fern, you have one nodule. At the base of the fern, you have larger nodules and more of them. So that's essentially what a fractal is. And we now know that fractals are the basic building blocks of nature. There's a professor at the University of Oregon, Professor Richard Taylor.

Mike [00:23:26]:

He's one of my faculty members and he's going to be on my webinar in September, by the way.

katie [00:23:31]:

Nice.

Mike [00:23:32]:

Yes. But Richard is a world renowned specialist in fractal fluency. He considers fractals to be the fingerprint of nature. All throughout our bodies, fractals are like a tree canopy, where at the base of the limb, the limb is bigger, but at the end of the limb it's tiny. So that's fractal patterning.

katie [00:23:51]:

Well, that's your lungs.

Mike [00:23:53]:

Absolutely your lungs. You know, I have a slide I use in my presentations. It's a cutoff of the circulatory system and a tree canopy, and they look almost exactly the same.

katie [00:24:03]:

Amazing.

Mike [00:24:04]:

So we are walking fractals. That's why fractal patterning is so endemic, so natural to us, and it stimulates us. And the other thing is the sense of fluidity. There are no straight lines or right angles in nature. Everything has a sense of movement and fluidity. And so just as in our bodies, look at the lines in the palm of our hand. Those are fractal patterns.

katie [00:24:26]:

You don't know how bad I want to look down and look at my hand right now. You're right. That's fascinating.

Mike [00:24:33]:

I know.

katie [00:24:34]:

Maybe that's why palm reading is a thing.

Mike [00:24:36]:

Yeah.

katie [00:24:37]:

This may be a rudimentary question, but is it wrong to paint a door red? We don't see the reds that we see on paint decks in nature.

Mike [00:24:45]:

I think going back to what we talked about earlier, it depends on what effect you want to have on the client? Do you want to stimulate them? Do you want to calm them? Remember, the room is acting as an agent on our body. And so what would that red do? We're going to have a color specialist at When Design Heals event that I'm having at October market in High Point. And she's going to be talking about the health benefits of different colors.

katie [00:25:10]:

Yeah.

Mike [00:25:11]:

So you can paint it any color you want. What do you want to experience as a result of what you've done?

katie [00:25:17]:

When I became certified in color consultation through IACC North America, these were the exact conversations we were having. And one of the most riveting moments for me was, why do we paint nurseries yellow? Most yellows, that's the worst idea. It's so stimulating. The sun comes up, it's yellow, it's get up. But then we tell our babies to go to sleep in a yellow environment and it's like, no, no. And I mean, that's become more passe in the last couple decades. But it's just interesting to see that corresponding, even down to the most basic of elements, color. And like when you start looking at color, texture, patterning, all the things we talk about as designers and then understand the nature component, I feel like it's like taking a black and white TV and turning it to high def color.

katie [00:26:04]:

Because all of a sudden it all clicks. It all makes sense. It all becomes way more dimensional and it takes a basic toolkit and expands it into something where you can truly create as a creative. How have you seen their designs evolve? Because now they understand the implications of their designs.

Mike [00:26:22]:

You know, I was talking to a designer just two weeks ago who said that she is now beginning to use biophilic design in most of her projects. She has changed her approach because she now knows the healing properties of biophilic design. You're seeing it happen in so many cases now. And again. I want to repeat that these are the designers that are ahead of the game. They're offering something that is brand new and it's cutting edge in terms of the knowledge they're putting out and giving.

katie [00:26:48]:

Their clients, which is such a good market differentiator. Because then like we discussed, you can elevate your price, you can elevate your marketing, you can elevate yourself as a subject matter expert. There's so many valuable components and at the end of the day, you get to do better by your client. Which is what we all long to do. Right. Is give them not only something they love, but something that really dramatically improves their life. And you're saying, yeah, not only can you do that, you can actually dramatically improve their health.

Mike [00:27:16]:

Absolutely. We have to go back to what science says. We have to trust science. They think of us as an alternative health resource. And I don't know that I can say that phrase enough, because again, we need to internalize that. We need to become the alternative health resource and not just hear it from science. We need to be the alternative health resource and make sure our clients know it and change the nature of our industry. I wish we could get manufacturers to do the same thing.

Mike [00:27:43]:

Yes, you have a couple that are out there ahead of the game, like Philips Collection and Fazee Rug with all of their patterns and their fractal imagery. But you have a lot of companies out there that aren't aware of the science at all. And I would love to be able to present to a group of furniture manufacturers just to. Just to let them know that this science is out there and it would raise the value proposition of the entire industry if we could all join together. So that's the next big step. Designers first, and then I'll take on the manufacturers.

katie [00:28:17]:

I think that's a great order because if the designers who are doing the specifying, you know, squeaky wheel gets the grease, if they ask long enough and hard enough for it, it's going to happen. That's a beautiful request. I can't think of a better way to end this episode and that we just need to integrate it into our vocabulary. Get educated in it to know what you're doing because there's a huge ethical component to it, and then use it to go set yourself apart and do better by your business and your clients? I mean, I can't think of a better win.

Mike [00:28:42]:

Honestly, Mike, if we're ending this, can I just remind people that they should join my monthly webinars? Go to my website, scienceanddesign.com and if you're coming to High Point, even if you're not coming to High Point, join us on October 24th for a full day symposium called When Design Heals. How Interior Design Shapes Health. It's a lot of fun and a lot of good education and a lot of great networking. So I hope you'll join us.

katie [00:29:09]:

I love that. It's not if design heals, it's when design heals.

Mike [00:29:12]:

Oh, no. Oh. It's when design heels.

katie [00:29:14]:

Beautiful. Can't think of a better way. Thank you, Mike.

Mike [00:29:17]:

Thank you, Katie.

Back to Blog
Katie Decker-Erickson host of Success By Design Podcast

I'm your host, Katie Erickson

I’m a commercial exterior and interior designer with an MBA and nearly 20 years in the industry. When I’m not leading my coast-to-coast, multi-million dollar firm, I love sharing real talk on the business of design, blending insights from 20 years as a business professor. I keep it honest—balancing work and chasing my two girls around.

neuroaesthetics-in-interior-design

Design Heals: The Secret Sauce Top Designers Are Using to Charge More: Transcript

August 13, 202528 min read

katie [00:00:00]:

Starts now. Hey, Mike, welcome to the show.

Mike [00:00:03]:

Hey, Katie, how you doing? Good to talk to you.

katie [00:00:06]:

Thank you for coming on because I'm so excited to have this conversation about neuroesthetics, biophilia, science and design, all of these things, but more importantly, how to use them to differentiate ourselves in our market as designers and be more profitable, especially watching what's going on in the economy right now. So just out of the gate, what does science and design even encompass?

Mike [00:00:30]:

Well, science and design is essentially an educational and marketing platform that helps interior designers realize the fact that they indeed improve health. For a long time, we've always felt that designers make their clients feel better. But now with this whole new world of neuro aesthetics affecting and becoming a significant part of our design business, science actually is now documenting the fact that when we create beauty as an industry, we improve health. We lower heart rate, we lower blood pressure, we can now scan and measure. When we see something of beauty, a portion of our brain lights up. And that confirms the fact that when a designer creates beauty, she improves the health of their client. It's one of the most exciting discoveries for the world of design today in many, many years compared to many, many years ago. It's exciting, it's changing, it's actually validating for the interior designer to know that science is confirming that they improve health.

katie [00:01:31]:

It's amazing to think about because I think we've intuitively known it all along, but there's also this understanding of or this perception. What you do is frou frou. It almost just makes light of it. And now to have the scientific backing of like, no, you're actually making a fundamental, important scientific change in your clients lives. Don't write a prescription for a pill. Write a prescription for a better environment. Is that what I'm hearing you say?

Mike [00:01:57]:

It's interesting you say that because in 2018, the Medical association in Canada authorized doctors to begin prescribing time spent in art galleries and museums.

katie [00:02:08]:

Amazing.

Mike [00:02:09]:

It is now a medicine in Canada. So instead of being given a bottle of Xanax, you're told, go spend time in art galleries to enjoy the beauty.

katie [00:02:18]:

You know, it's funny you should say that. I'll never forget my daughter. When she was probably about six years old, we were walking through the fine art museum in Phoenix and she was walking by piece after piece after piece and she stopped at this one piece and she didn't move. And I thought, that's so fascinating. What is that piece? What is that that has captured her? And it was one of Monet's water lilies.

Mike [00:02:38]:

And there you go.

katie [00:02:39]:

It just was amazing. Out of this entire menagerie of artists, all of which, you know, don't get me wrong, they had a reason to be there. But even to this day, how many years later that a little six year old's eye would be still captured by Monet with no idea who Monet is? No idea. But the beauty and the essence of beauty was still resonating in her little body.

Mike [00:03:02]:

Yeah, you know, we survived over the millennia because we sought out pleasure and beauty. And so it's encoded in our DNA. And these are reports from the University of Pennsylvania, Johns Hopkins University, the Mayo Clinic. All of them have confirmed that we have to find beauty. Now look at the advantage that there is for an interior designer. The interior designer is providing an element of a person's life that is fundamentally needed. It's not an elective, it's not a passive interest. It's a fundamental need to surround ourselves with beauty.

katie [00:03:36]:

I'm just sitting here letting that resonate for a minute. I mean, talk about adding weight and bulk to what we do and just that fundamental desire, which is why I think our industry will never go out of style. Because people want a place that feels good and what that means to different people is obviously different, but that's that fundamental desire. It kind of takes us into that conversation about neuro aesthetics, which is really the overarching umbrella of the idea of science and design. Break down neuro aesthetics for everyone listening today.

Mike [00:04:08]:

Okay, yeah, it's a fun word, it's a new word in our lexicon. But if you break the word down, neuro means phys, physiological and the brain. And aesthetics of course is beauty, nature and fine design. And so neuro aesthetics is a spinoff of neuroscience and again it's changing the landscape of interior design today. Science now looks at our industry and considers us to be an alternative health resource. And that's a phrase that we need to begin to internalize and start using. There's a great quote from the head of environmental medicine at the University of Texas, Dr. Claudia Miller, and her quote is architects and designers have a greater ability to improve public health than medical professionals.

katie [00:04:51]:

That's insane to think about.

Mike [00:04:53]:

Let that resonate for a minute. That's game changing for our industry. Doctors, the people that we trust with our health are saying that we have a greater ability to improve health than they do. The center for Innovation at the Mayo Clinic, Dr. Douglas Wood says the future of medicine is in the home.

katie [00:05:10]:

Isn't that incredible to think about?

Mike [00:05:12]:

It is. That's why I say it's so exciting.

katie [00:05:15]:

Well, it makes me smile because it just feels so validating to what we do. We know makes a difference in people's lives, but to have the science to back it is incredible. And you know, speaking of lexicons and words that get thrown around, another one that we've heard come in and out of our industry that's gaining more traction is this idea of biophilia. How does biophilia interface with neuro aesthetics and what's the core correlation there?

Mike [00:05:39]:

Well, biophilia essentially is our love of nature. And biophilic design is bringing real nature or the representations of nature into the home. And again, biophilia is a subsegment in my mind of neuro aesthetics because it's related to our evolutionary inheritance. We are nature. We forget that we surround ourselves with all these artificial elements, like big buildings and non natural elements, which are really in many ways unhealthy for us because we need nature. It's where we were born 3.6 billion years ago. That's what biophilia is and, and that's why it's so badly needed in the home today.

katie [00:06:19]:

It's so interesting you should say that. I'm reflecting back on a trip I had to Argentina and walking through the cities, not the rural areas, but the cities of Argentina, it's been around so long that there's so much pavement and so many hard surfaces. And I'll never forget landing there in Buenos Aires and walking out and being like, where is the grass? Can I find a tree? I mean, because Buenos Aires is just huge. And so just to stand in that space and then you like, you go below grade and like there's floors that descend down into the city, which is fascinating, but it's all like a marble or a limestone or like it's all these different hard surfaces. And I just felt uncomfortable. And that was 25 years ago. And I just remember thinking like, this just doesn't feel right to me. And it was like this agitation and it took like two or three days to figure out what it was.

katie [00:07:17]:

And then I was like, I just need a tree.

Mike [00:07:19]:

Yeah, look at what we've done to ourselves over the last hundred years. Look at the many of the urban centers that we have in our country today. The tall skyscrapers, the plate glass windows, all of them lacking detail and ornamentation. And compared to what we find in nature, our need for patterns and design elements that are non existent. You know what's interesting is that we grew up As a species, with the rabbits and the deer and the plants in the trees, we're supposed to be the evolved species. But the rabbits and the deer are still in their natural habitat. We are not.

katie [00:07:52]:

That's a fascinating thing. In fact, there's this, and I'm sure you're very familiar with it, but I've been observing these new type of science where we're actually biomimicring in design, like what bees are doing and the power of the shape of their combs, their honeycombs, and watching ants and designing based off that. Because to your point, it's actually far more advanced than anything we're creating at the moment. And there's a reason why. And so to go back in. And actually, this whole idea of, I don't know, can we use the word devolving, but, like, getting back to, like, nature and pulling back on what we think has been elevated design and returning it to something that is actually familiar is so grounding literally and figuratively for people.

Mike [00:08:38]:

Well, from a health perspective as well, one of the reasons that biophilic design has become so popular and is becoming the darling of the residential design world is that the major corporations and hospitals around the world have learned the health benefits of biophilic design. There's a hospital in Singapore called the Kutek Phuat Hospital. It is the standard for biophilically designed hospitals in the world. And every square foot is considered under the biophilic elements approach. You have Maggie Center, a cancer institute in St James University in London, 100% biophilic. You have your major corporations in this country. Apple has a new $6 billion headquarters. It is 100% biophilically designed.

Mike [00:09:27]:

Every workstation has access to natural sunlight and greenery. Microsoft is building conference rooms and treetops. Amazon has 390 different species of plant life in their headquarters.

katie [00:09:38]:

Amazing.

Mike [00:09:39]:

And this is important for the interior designer. They're doing it because they want to increase creativity, and they know they do. They want to increase productivity, and they know they do. And that ultimately leads to an increase in what? Profitability.

katie [00:09:53]:

That makes complete sense. How does that translate into the home environment? And the random question I have, Mike, is, can I use faux plants and still get the same effect? Can we use faux elements of nature and still get the same biochemical internal impact?

Mike [00:10:10]:

According to Terpene Bright Green and Bill Browning, who heads up Terrapin Bright Green, which is the consulting firm that leads the world on biophilic design, biomimicry is indeed important. You can paint a wall, okay. Making it look Like a nature setting, and it has a demonstrative impact on your body and mind. So, yes, biomimicry and real nature. But remember, biophilic design is not just the visual. There's something in biophilic design called prospect and refuge. And it's a throwback to our days in our caves where we were safe and secure, but we had a view to the outside world, the prospect of the rest of the world. And you see that today in window seats.

Mike [00:10:51]:

You know, where you're sitting on a window seat, you're enjoying your glass of chardonnay, reading a book, listening to music, but you have a view to the outside world. That is a very comfortable and rewarding and calming place to be. Also, when we walk into a restaurant and. And there's nobody in the restaurant, do you choose the table in the middle of the room? No, never. You choose the table against the wall so that you have your back to the wall with a view to the rest of the room. It's all, again, encoded in our DNA. It's a sense of safety and security, prospect and refuge.

katie [00:11:25]:

It's interesting.

Mike [00:11:26]:

It's very interesting. But that's just one of the design elements inside of Biophilia. So it doesn't have to be green, it doesn't have to be a picture of nature. There are elements like fire and running water. And there's something called organized complexity. You know, our brains are perfect examples of organized complexity. So we need to find and we seek out complex images that are organized. Think about it for a minute.

Mike [00:11:54]:

How boring is a straight line? Yeah, it doesn't become interesting to us until it has movement and curves and fluidity. And so that's what we seek out as a human.

katie [00:12:04]:

So two questions. One, how do I incorporate this into my designs as a residential designer? And then also, how do I make it profitable and educate my clients that this matters? Because I think a lot of them, yes, they want a beautiful home that feels good. They don't understand there's actual science and that the person you trust to your point in your quote, to come in and do your home could be more powerful than your doctor. How do we explain this to our clients in a way that elevates us, differentiates us, it becomes a marketing tool, and also it builds trust with our ideal client.

Mike [00:12:39]:

I think the first step is you must learn about this. In order to have the confidence, you need to have the knowledge, and you need to be able to speak to the knowledge. And there are a couple of publications that I always recommend. There's one by the architect Don Ruggles called Beauty, Neuroscience and Architecture. There's one by Stephen Keller called Designing for Health. And there's also Nature Inside by Terek and Bright Green. Those are excellent places to start talking about neuro aesthetics and biophilic design. The thing about biophilic design, again to remember is are the health principles.

Mike [00:13:14]:

There's a study that was done by the Rusk Institute in New York where they prescribed for 107 different cardiac patients time spent in a nursery. Not just to walk through the nursery, but to literally put their hands in dirt and plant flowers for 30 minutes. The result was a decrease in heart rate of 5 beats per minute.

katie [00:13:34]:

That's significant.

Mike [00:13:35]:

That's very significant, especially for cardiac patients. And so there are multiple studies like that done by institutions. So you're talking about biophilic design not just from the way it looks, but, but because of the health principles that it provides.

katie [00:13:50]:

And when you're explaining that to your ideal client, how do you not put the fear of God in them? That like I'm more powerful than your doctor and not sound like a complete crazy person, but also explain to them like, who you choose to bring into your home and design this space is deeply important and will have significant impact on you and your family.

Mike [00:14:09]:

I think you start talking about it right up front. There are a couple of. I have a certification program in science and design and a couple hundred designers have now taken the program and it's changing the way they talk and their headlines on their websites. A couple of headlines on their websites are our science based design approach. Another one is Bridging interior design and health, the new paradigm for design. And a last one, neuro aesthetics, the science of how beauty and art affect our minds. So anybody, any consumer coming to your website will already be exposed to the language that you're speaking. And quite frankly, especially coming out of the pandemic, health and wellness and well being has become an important element of life at home.

Mike [00:14:53]:

And so you will already be speaking the language of that consumer. So that's one of the ways to start bridging science and the design that you're going to offer your client.

katie [00:15:04]:

Well, and one of the things I love to talk about is ontological design. I wrote a publication for Neocon a year or so ago about it. But just the idea that we don't just design spaces and this is exactly what you're describing, they design us back. And it's interesting to see how if you put people in different environments, their behavior changes, the way they respond to things changes and especially it was even interesting, we once did a kids shelter actually for kids in the foster care program and redesigned that space. And they're like, we have so many behavioral problems and we have so many challenges. All these kids are on an immense amount of medication. It's a whole thing. And so we calmed everything down.

katie [00:15:44]:

They actually had read in the dining room. I'm like, really? That's the worst idea. Like, we need to calm all this way down and go to blues. Like we were gonna go. Classic spa palette. It was fascinating. After we got through with it, to check in later, the behavioral problems had significantly reduced since we had done that.

Mike [00:16:03]:

Sure.

katie [00:16:04]:

And we elevated the kitchen. It had natural woods in it and it felt like a home to them, which is a designer. That's what I wanted to give them. Because who knows, if these kids, some of them were aging out of the program, they might never have a quote unquote home. And I thought, man, what a golden opportunity. But to see that happen firsthand, it's just undeniable that there's this interface. Okay, so blatant honest question, Mike, can we charge more for this as designers?

Mike [00:16:31]:

Virtually every one of the designers that I've worked with has increased their hourly rate because their value proposition has changed so significantly. When you're the designer in a marketplace and you're talking about science backed design, that the foundation of your design business is now born in science. In fact, the future of design, we are now believing, is born in science. And so if you're the one talking about that, if you're the early adopter, then you do have an advantage over others, and I think that's really important. And I want to go back to your last comment about the impact of the environment. There's a great quote from Sarah Robinson, an architect out of Italy who leads this subject matter. She says, we cannot touch without being touched in return.

katie [00:17:16]:

That's beautiful.

Mike [00:17:17]:

And so it's a reminder that the environment is always having an impact on us every second of every day.

katie [00:17:24]:

You know, it's interesting because people think, oh, I don't need an interior designer. My home is fine. And I want to say, yeah, it's fine, but it's also making you fine. Are you okay being fine? Or do you want to feel grounded? Do you want to feel creative? Do you want to feel inspired? What is it that you're going for in this space? If you're fine with fine, then expect fine outputs. But if you want something elevated, we're going to have to create an elevated space for that. Because it really. There's this interaction that fundamentally happens and you can pretend it's not happening. We often talk about this when I'm coaching other interior designers about the culture of their business.

katie [00:18:00]:

You can pretend it's not there. The reality is a culture will form. It is undeniable. I think the same is true of the interaction with any design we create. There is going to be an interaction if you're in this space. I'll never forget my husband, actually, in a different art museum, walked into this beautiful light exhibit with all mirrors by a Japanese artist who's incredible. And he walked out and he was actually crying. And he's not a crier.

katie [00:18:24]:

And it was just fascinating to watch him be so moved to walk into this expansive space. It's all dark, with lights hanging down and mirrors everywhere, where you just feel like you're a very small portion of a very big universe. And it's just one room, but you can't tell when you walk in. And to have him walk out in that feeling, it was such a beautiful moment for him to realize the power of what I do and what our industry does. I think in creating places that you're going to be impacted one way or another. So you might as well pick your impact.

Mike [00:18:52]:

Well, you know, the design is never neutral.

katie [00:18:55]:

Yes.

Mike [00:18:55]:

It can either harm you or it can help you. You know, design can act. If it's designed correctly, design can act as an accelerant for good health. We need to start thinking about designing for health, not just for beauty. We need to start designing. Think of our industry as a health institute. The client can nest themselves, cradle themselves in an environment that actually was designed to improve the health of that client. It's pretty much a seismic shift compared to 20 years ago.

katie [00:19:26]:

Huge.

Mike [00:19:26]:

You know, we lower heart rate, we lower blood pressure. Let's internalize, take advantage of it and get. Start getting credit for it, for heaven's sake.

katie [00:19:34]:

Absolutely. I mean, to think about that, those levels of outputs, and now that it's actually quantifiable. Right. We've been able to quantify the impact. That is an absolutely huge, huge game changer. So once we start and we meet with our ideal client, it starts on our website, this vernacular, and it carries through to our proposal packet, our education throughout and along the way with the client. How do we wrap it up and how do we use it as a marketing tool on future projects? When it comes to this concept, do you feel that most designers who implement this, by the time they're done with their client, there's Such a profound understanding. They can't imagine doing something else.

katie [00:20:12]:

Or is it something that you have to build into your process throughout the way?

Mike [00:20:16]:

I think it's something you have to build into your process because the frequent reminder of why you're. You're using this color or you're building this hallway this way. There's something in Biophilia called modes of mystery. You know, what's around the corner. It's a basic design element. You know, what's behind the trees on the right as we would walk through the forest over the millions of years? You know, there's a sense of where's the unexpected, a sense of awe and wonder. So that's a design element that you want to include in your process and that needs to be explained to the client along the way. And in terms of marketing, I've already given you a couple of the headlines from websites.

Mike [00:20:52]:

These designers are including it in their Instagram posting, in LinkedIn, in their magazine advertising. So that's the marketing aspect. And again, the early adopters are out there ahead of the game. And 10 years from now, I pretty much suspect that this will become much more normal with most designers, because those who are last to get in will be wondering what happened over the last 10 years. You know, they'll still be selling timeless design. I hate that phrase. I mean, it's just so overused.

katie [00:21:25]:

Yeah, no, it's interesting. As you're talking, I'm thinking about, like, all the meandering pathways that you see and how much more exciting those are. Or even in city design, when they just put power lines below grade so you don't have to look at those and you can actually see the trees. Again, like all of these curiosity moments. What would you say to an interior designer? Obviously they need to go through a program. There's so many elements to this. And because it is so scientific and you can and should directly impact people's health, and that comes with a whole ethical component to it. But what would you say to someone listening to this conversation? Like, what are three elements that they can implement into their designs now? Integrating neuro aesthetics, biophilia, this concept, they can noticeably see the difference in their designs and what they can sell to their clients?

Mike [00:22:13]:

Well, I have to say up front that I'm not an interior designer, so I can give you the knowledge of what is important, and that is, I would certainly take on the world of biophilia. I would definitely include biophilic design in your approach because of all of the things that we've already talked about. It's beautiful because, remember, nature is the original beauty. You know, a hundred thousand years ago, it was only nature. It was the five points on a maple leaf. You know, it was the babbling brook. These are design elements that can be included in a home. Today, samples.

Mike [00:22:46]:

I would also start including fractal patterning.

katie [00:22:49]:

I love patterns. So now you're talking my language. Go down that path.

Mike [00:22:53]:

A lot of designers are using fractals, but they don't really know what a fractal is. Fractals are essentially geometric shapes and forms that are consistent in a pattern design, but they ascend or descend in scale. So a typical fractal would be something like a fern. You know, at the tip of the fern, you have one nodule. At the base of the fern, you have larger nodules and more of them. So that's essentially what a fractal is. And we now know that fractals are the basic building blocks of nature. There's a professor at the University of Oregon, Professor Richard Taylor.

Mike [00:23:26]:

He's one of my faculty members and he's going to be on my webinar in September, by the way.

katie [00:23:31]:

Nice.

Mike [00:23:32]:

Yes. But Richard is a world renowned specialist in fractal fluency. He considers fractals to be the fingerprint of nature. All throughout our bodies, fractals are like a tree canopy, where at the base of the limb, the limb is bigger, but at the end of the limb it's tiny. So that's fractal patterning.

katie [00:23:51]:

Well, that's your lungs.

Mike [00:23:53]:

Absolutely your lungs. You know, I have a slide I use in my presentations. It's a cutoff of the circulatory system and a tree canopy, and they look almost exactly the same.

katie [00:24:03]:

Amazing.

Mike [00:24:04]:

So we are walking fractals. That's why fractal patterning is so endemic, so natural to us, and it stimulates us. And the other thing is the sense of fluidity. There are no straight lines or right angles in nature. Everything has a sense of movement and fluidity. And so just as in our bodies, look at the lines in the palm of our hand. Those are fractal patterns.

katie [00:24:26]:

You don't know how bad I want to look down and look at my hand right now. You're right. That's fascinating.

Mike [00:24:33]:

I know.

katie [00:24:34]:

Maybe that's why palm reading is a thing.

Mike [00:24:36]:

Yeah.

katie [00:24:37]:

This may be a rudimentary question, but is it wrong to paint a door red? We don't see the reds that we see on paint decks in nature.

Mike [00:24:45]:

I think going back to what we talked about earlier, it depends on what effect you want to have on the client? Do you want to stimulate them? Do you want to calm them? Remember, the room is acting as an agent on our body. And so what would that red do? We're going to have a color specialist at When Design Heals event that I'm having at October market in High Point. And she's going to be talking about the health benefits of different colors.

katie [00:25:10]:

Yeah.

Mike [00:25:11]:

So you can paint it any color you want. What do you want to experience as a result of what you've done?

katie [00:25:17]:

When I became certified in color consultation through IACC North America, these were the exact conversations we were having. And one of the most riveting moments for me was, why do we paint nurseries yellow? Most yellows, that's the worst idea. It's so stimulating. The sun comes up, it's yellow, it's get up. But then we tell our babies to go to sleep in a yellow environment and it's like, no, no. And I mean, that's become more passe in the last couple decades. But it's just interesting to see that corresponding, even down to the most basic of elements, color. And like when you start looking at color, texture, patterning, all the things we talk about as designers and then understand the nature component, I feel like it's like taking a black and white TV and turning it to high def color.

katie [00:26:04]:

Because all of a sudden it all clicks. It all makes sense. It all becomes way more dimensional and it takes a basic toolkit and expands it into something where you can truly create as a creative. How have you seen their designs evolve? Because now they understand the implications of their designs.

Mike [00:26:22]:

You know, I was talking to a designer just two weeks ago who said that she is now beginning to use biophilic design in most of her projects. She has changed her approach because she now knows the healing properties of biophilic design. You're seeing it happen in so many cases now. And again. I want to repeat that these are the designers that are ahead of the game. They're offering something that is brand new and it's cutting edge in terms of the knowledge they're putting out and giving.

katie [00:26:48]:

Their clients, which is such a good market differentiator. Because then like we discussed, you can elevate your price, you can elevate your marketing, you can elevate yourself as a subject matter expert. There's so many valuable components and at the end of the day, you get to do better by your client. Which is what we all long to do. Right. Is give them not only something they love, but something that really dramatically improves their life. And you're saying, yeah, not only can you do that, you can actually dramatically improve their health.

Mike [00:27:16]:

Absolutely. We have to go back to what science says. We have to trust science. They think of us as an alternative health resource. And I don't know that I can say that phrase enough, because again, we need to internalize that. We need to become the alternative health resource and not just hear it from science. We need to be the alternative health resource and make sure our clients know it and change the nature of our industry. I wish we could get manufacturers to do the same thing.

Mike [00:27:43]:

Yes, you have a couple that are out there ahead of the game, like Philips Collection and Fazee Rug with all of their patterns and their fractal imagery. But you have a lot of companies out there that aren't aware of the science at all. And I would love to be able to present to a group of furniture manufacturers just to. Just to let them know that this science is out there and it would raise the value proposition of the entire industry if we could all join together. So that's the next big step. Designers first, and then I'll take on the manufacturers.

katie [00:28:17]:

I think that's a great order because if the designers who are doing the specifying, you know, squeaky wheel gets the grease, if they ask long enough and hard enough for it, it's going to happen. That's a beautiful request. I can't think of a better way to end this episode and that we just need to integrate it into our vocabulary. Get educated in it to know what you're doing because there's a huge ethical component to it, and then use it to go set yourself apart and do better by your business and your clients? I mean, I can't think of a better win.

Mike [00:28:42]:

Honestly, Mike, if we're ending this, can I just remind people that they should join my monthly webinars? Go to my website, scienceanddesign.com and if you're coming to High Point, even if you're not coming to High Point, join us on October 24th for a full day symposium called When Design Heals. How Interior Design Shapes Health. It's a lot of fun and a lot of good education and a lot of great networking. So I hope you'll join us.

katie [00:29:09]:

I love that. It's not if design heals, it's when design heals.

Mike [00:29:12]:

Oh, no. Oh. It's when design heels.

katie [00:29:14]:

Beautiful. Can't think of a better way. Thank you, Mike.

Mike [00:29:17]:

Thank you, Katie.

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neuroaesthetics-in-interior-design

Design Heals: The Secret Sauce Top Designers Are Using to Charge More: Transcript

August 13, 202528 min read

katie [00:00:00]:

Starts now. Hey, Mike, welcome to the show.

Mike [00:00:03]:

Hey, Katie, how you doing? Good to talk to you.

katie [00:00:06]:

Thank you for coming on because I'm so excited to have this conversation about neuroesthetics, biophilia, science and design, all of these things, but more importantly, how to use them to differentiate ourselves in our market as designers and be more profitable, especially watching what's going on in the economy right now. So just out of the gate, what does science and design even encompass?

Mike [00:00:30]:

Well, science and design is essentially an educational and marketing platform that helps interior designers realize the fact that they indeed improve health. For a long time, we've always felt that designers make their clients feel better. But now with this whole new world of neuro aesthetics affecting and becoming a significant part of our design business, science actually is now documenting the fact that when we create beauty as an industry, we improve health. We lower heart rate, we lower blood pressure, we can now scan and measure. When we see something of beauty, a portion of our brain lights up. And that confirms the fact that when a designer creates beauty, she improves the health of their client. It's one of the most exciting discoveries for the world of design today in many, many years compared to many, many years ago. It's exciting, it's changing, it's actually validating for the interior designer to know that science is confirming that they improve health.

katie [00:01:31]:

It's amazing to think about because I think we've intuitively known it all along, but there's also this understanding of or this perception. What you do is frou frou. It almost just makes light of it. And now to have the scientific backing of like, no, you're actually making a fundamental, important scientific change in your clients lives. Don't write a prescription for a pill. Write a prescription for a better environment. Is that what I'm hearing you say?

Mike [00:01:57]:

It's interesting you say that because in 2018, the Medical association in Canada authorized doctors to begin prescribing time spent in art galleries and museums.

katie [00:02:08]:

Amazing.

Mike [00:02:09]:

It is now a medicine in Canada. So instead of being given a bottle of Xanax, you're told, go spend time in art galleries to enjoy the beauty.

katie [00:02:18]:

You know, it's funny you should say that. I'll never forget my daughter. When she was probably about six years old, we were walking through the fine art museum in Phoenix and she was walking by piece after piece after piece and she stopped at this one piece and she didn't move. And I thought, that's so fascinating. What is that piece? What is that that has captured her? And it was one of Monet's water lilies.

Mike [00:02:38]:

And there you go.

katie [00:02:39]:

It just was amazing. Out of this entire menagerie of artists, all of which, you know, don't get me wrong, they had a reason to be there. But even to this day, how many years later that a little six year old's eye would be still captured by Monet with no idea who Monet is? No idea. But the beauty and the essence of beauty was still resonating in her little body.

Mike [00:03:02]:

Yeah, you know, we survived over the millennia because we sought out pleasure and beauty. And so it's encoded in our DNA. And these are reports from the University of Pennsylvania, Johns Hopkins University, the Mayo Clinic. All of them have confirmed that we have to find beauty. Now look at the advantage that there is for an interior designer. The interior designer is providing an element of a person's life that is fundamentally needed. It's not an elective, it's not a passive interest. It's a fundamental need to surround ourselves with beauty.

katie [00:03:36]:

I'm just sitting here letting that resonate for a minute. I mean, talk about adding weight and bulk to what we do and just that fundamental desire, which is why I think our industry will never go out of style. Because people want a place that feels good and what that means to different people is obviously different, but that's that fundamental desire. It kind of takes us into that conversation about neuro aesthetics, which is really the overarching umbrella of the idea of science and design. Break down neuro aesthetics for everyone listening today.

Mike [00:04:08]:

Okay, yeah, it's a fun word, it's a new word in our lexicon. But if you break the word down, neuro means phys, physiological and the brain. And aesthetics of course is beauty, nature and fine design. And so neuro aesthetics is a spinoff of neuroscience and again it's changing the landscape of interior design today. Science now looks at our industry and considers us to be an alternative health resource. And that's a phrase that we need to begin to internalize and start using. There's a great quote from the head of environmental medicine at the University of Texas, Dr. Claudia Miller, and her quote is architects and designers have a greater ability to improve public health than medical professionals.

katie [00:04:51]:

That's insane to think about.

Mike [00:04:53]:

Let that resonate for a minute. That's game changing for our industry. Doctors, the people that we trust with our health are saying that we have a greater ability to improve health than they do. The center for Innovation at the Mayo Clinic, Dr. Douglas Wood says the future of medicine is in the home.

katie [00:05:10]:

Isn't that incredible to think about?

Mike [00:05:12]:

It is. That's why I say it's so exciting.

katie [00:05:15]:

Well, it makes me smile because it just feels so validating to what we do. We know makes a difference in people's lives, but to have the science to back it is incredible. And you know, speaking of lexicons and words that get thrown around, another one that we've heard come in and out of our industry that's gaining more traction is this idea of biophilia. How does biophilia interface with neuro aesthetics and what's the core correlation there?

Mike [00:05:39]:

Well, biophilia essentially is our love of nature. And biophilic design is bringing real nature or the representations of nature into the home. And again, biophilia is a subsegment in my mind of neuro aesthetics because it's related to our evolutionary inheritance. We are nature. We forget that we surround ourselves with all these artificial elements, like big buildings and non natural elements, which are really in many ways unhealthy for us because we need nature. It's where we were born 3.6 billion years ago. That's what biophilia is and, and that's why it's so badly needed in the home today.

katie [00:06:19]:

It's so interesting you should say that. I'm reflecting back on a trip I had to Argentina and walking through the cities, not the rural areas, but the cities of Argentina, it's been around so long that there's so much pavement and so many hard surfaces. And I'll never forget landing there in Buenos Aires and walking out and being like, where is the grass? Can I find a tree? I mean, because Buenos Aires is just huge. And so just to stand in that space and then you like, you go below grade and like there's floors that descend down into the city, which is fascinating, but it's all like a marble or a limestone or like it's all these different hard surfaces. And I just felt uncomfortable. And that was 25 years ago. And I just remember thinking like, this just doesn't feel right to me. And it was like this agitation and it took like two or three days to figure out what it was.

katie [00:07:17]:

And then I was like, I just need a tree.

Mike [00:07:19]:

Yeah, look at what we've done to ourselves over the last hundred years. Look at the many of the urban centers that we have in our country today. The tall skyscrapers, the plate glass windows, all of them lacking detail and ornamentation. And compared to what we find in nature, our need for patterns and design elements that are non existent. You know what's interesting is that we grew up As a species, with the rabbits and the deer and the plants in the trees, we're supposed to be the evolved species. But the rabbits and the deer are still in their natural habitat. We are not.

katie [00:07:52]:

That's a fascinating thing. In fact, there's this, and I'm sure you're very familiar with it, but I've been observing these new type of science where we're actually biomimicring in design, like what bees are doing and the power of the shape of their combs, their honeycombs, and watching ants and designing based off that. Because to your point, it's actually far more advanced than anything we're creating at the moment. And there's a reason why. And so to go back in. And actually, this whole idea of, I don't know, can we use the word devolving, but, like, getting back to, like, nature and pulling back on what we think has been elevated design and returning it to something that is actually familiar is so grounding literally and figuratively for people.

Mike [00:08:38]:

Well, from a health perspective as well, one of the reasons that biophilic design has become so popular and is becoming the darling of the residential design world is that the major corporations and hospitals around the world have learned the health benefits of biophilic design. There's a hospital in Singapore called the Kutek Phuat Hospital. It is the standard for biophilically designed hospitals in the world. And every square foot is considered under the biophilic elements approach. You have Maggie Center, a cancer institute in St James University in London, 100% biophilic. You have your major corporations in this country. Apple has a new $6 billion headquarters. It is 100% biophilically designed.

Mike [00:09:27]:

Every workstation has access to natural sunlight and greenery. Microsoft is building conference rooms and treetops. Amazon has 390 different species of plant life in their headquarters.

katie [00:09:38]:

Amazing.

Mike [00:09:39]:

And this is important for the interior designer. They're doing it because they want to increase creativity, and they know they do. They want to increase productivity, and they know they do. And that ultimately leads to an increase in what? Profitability.

katie [00:09:53]:

That makes complete sense. How does that translate into the home environment? And the random question I have, Mike, is, can I use faux plants and still get the same effect? Can we use faux elements of nature and still get the same biochemical internal impact?

Mike [00:10:10]:

According to Terpene Bright Green and Bill Browning, who heads up Terrapin Bright Green, which is the consulting firm that leads the world on biophilic design, biomimicry is indeed important. You can paint a wall, okay. Making it look Like a nature setting, and it has a demonstrative impact on your body and mind. So, yes, biomimicry and real nature. But remember, biophilic design is not just the visual. There's something in biophilic design called prospect and refuge. And it's a throwback to our days in our caves where we were safe and secure, but we had a view to the outside world, the prospect of the rest of the world. And you see that today in window seats.

Mike [00:10:51]:

You know, where you're sitting on a window seat, you're enjoying your glass of chardonnay, reading a book, listening to music, but you have a view to the outside world. That is a very comfortable and rewarding and calming place to be. Also, when we walk into a restaurant and. And there's nobody in the restaurant, do you choose the table in the middle of the room? No, never. You choose the table against the wall so that you have your back to the wall with a view to the rest of the room. It's all, again, encoded in our DNA. It's a sense of safety and security, prospect and refuge.

katie [00:11:25]:

It's interesting.

Mike [00:11:26]:

It's very interesting. But that's just one of the design elements inside of Biophilia. So it doesn't have to be green, it doesn't have to be a picture of nature. There are elements like fire and running water. And there's something called organized complexity. You know, our brains are perfect examples of organized complexity. So we need to find and we seek out complex images that are organized. Think about it for a minute.

Mike [00:11:54]:

How boring is a straight line? Yeah, it doesn't become interesting to us until it has movement and curves and fluidity. And so that's what we seek out as a human.

katie [00:12:04]:

So two questions. One, how do I incorporate this into my designs as a residential designer? And then also, how do I make it profitable and educate my clients that this matters? Because I think a lot of them, yes, they want a beautiful home that feels good. They don't understand there's actual science and that the person you trust to your point in your quote, to come in and do your home could be more powerful than your doctor. How do we explain this to our clients in a way that elevates us, differentiates us, it becomes a marketing tool, and also it builds trust with our ideal client.

Mike [00:12:39]:

I think the first step is you must learn about this. In order to have the confidence, you need to have the knowledge, and you need to be able to speak to the knowledge. And there are a couple of publications that I always recommend. There's one by the architect Don Ruggles called Beauty, Neuroscience and Architecture. There's one by Stephen Keller called Designing for Health. And there's also Nature Inside by Terek and Bright Green. Those are excellent places to start talking about neuro aesthetics and biophilic design. The thing about biophilic design, again to remember is are the health principles.

Mike [00:13:14]:

There's a study that was done by the Rusk Institute in New York where they prescribed for 107 different cardiac patients time spent in a nursery. Not just to walk through the nursery, but to literally put their hands in dirt and plant flowers for 30 minutes. The result was a decrease in heart rate of 5 beats per minute.

katie [00:13:34]:

That's significant.

Mike [00:13:35]:

That's very significant, especially for cardiac patients. And so there are multiple studies like that done by institutions. So you're talking about biophilic design not just from the way it looks, but, but because of the health principles that it provides.

katie [00:13:50]:

And when you're explaining that to your ideal client, how do you not put the fear of God in them? That like I'm more powerful than your doctor and not sound like a complete crazy person, but also explain to them like, who you choose to bring into your home and design this space is deeply important and will have significant impact on you and your family.

Mike [00:14:09]:

I think you start talking about it right up front. There are a couple of. I have a certification program in science and design and a couple hundred designers have now taken the program and it's changing the way they talk and their headlines on their websites. A couple of headlines on their websites are our science based design approach. Another one is Bridging interior design and health, the new paradigm for design. And a last one, neuro aesthetics, the science of how beauty and art affect our minds. So anybody, any consumer coming to your website will already be exposed to the language that you're speaking. And quite frankly, especially coming out of the pandemic, health and wellness and well being has become an important element of life at home.

Mike [00:14:53]:

And so you will already be speaking the language of that consumer. So that's one of the ways to start bridging science and the design that you're going to offer your client.

katie [00:15:04]:

Well, and one of the things I love to talk about is ontological design. I wrote a publication for Neocon a year or so ago about it. But just the idea that we don't just design spaces and this is exactly what you're describing, they design us back. And it's interesting to see how if you put people in different environments, their behavior changes, the way they respond to things changes and especially it was even interesting, we once did a kids shelter actually for kids in the foster care program and redesigned that space. And they're like, we have so many behavioral problems and we have so many challenges. All these kids are on an immense amount of medication. It's a whole thing. And so we calmed everything down.

katie [00:15:44]:

They actually had read in the dining room. I'm like, really? That's the worst idea. Like, we need to calm all this way down and go to blues. Like we were gonna go. Classic spa palette. It was fascinating. After we got through with it, to check in later, the behavioral problems had significantly reduced since we had done that.

Mike [00:16:03]:

Sure.

katie [00:16:04]:

And we elevated the kitchen. It had natural woods in it and it felt like a home to them, which is a designer. That's what I wanted to give them. Because who knows, if these kids, some of them were aging out of the program, they might never have a quote unquote home. And I thought, man, what a golden opportunity. But to see that happen firsthand, it's just undeniable that there's this interface. Okay, so blatant honest question, Mike, can we charge more for this as designers?

Mike [00:16:31]:

Virtually every one of the designers that I've worked with has increased their hourly rate because their value proposition has changed so significantly. When you're the designer in a marketplace and you're talking about science backed design, that the foundation of your design business is now born in science. In fact, the future of design, we are now believing, is born in science. And so if you're the one talking about that, if you're the early adopter, then you do have an advantage over others, and I think that's really important. And I want to go back to your last comment about the impact of the environment. There's a great quote from Sarah Robinson, an architect out of Italy who leads this subject matter. She says, we cannot touch without being touched in return.

katie [00:17:16]:

That's beautiful.

Mike [00:17:17]:

And so it's a reminder that the environment is always having an impact on us every second of every day.

katie [00:17:24]:

You know, it's interesting because people think, oh, I don't need an interior designer. My home is fine. And I want to say, yeah, it's fine, but it's also making you fine. Are you okay being fine? Or do you want to feel grounded? Do you want to feel creative? Do you want to feel inspired? What is it that you're going for in this space? If you're fine with fine, then expect fine outputs. But if you want something elevated, we're going to have to create an elevated space for that. Because it really. There's this interaction that fundamentally happens and you can pretend it's not happening. We often talk about this when I'm coaching other interior designers about the culture of their business.

katie [00:18:00]:

You can pretend it's not there. The reality is a culture will form. It is undeniable. I think the same is true of the interaction with any design we create. There is going to be an interaction if you're in this space. I'll never forget my husband, actually, in a different art museum, walked into this beautiful light exhibit with all mirrors by a Japanese artist who's incredible. And he walked out and he was actually crying. And he's not a crier.

katie [00:18:24]:

And it was just fascinating to watch him be so moved to walk into this expansive space. It's all dark, with lights hanging down and mirrors everywhere, where you just feel like you're a very small portion of a very big universe. And it's just one room, but you can't tell when you walk in. And to have him walk out in that feeling, it was such a beautiful moment for him to realize the power of what I do and what our industry does. I think in creating places that you're going to be impacted one way or another. So you might as well pick your impact.

Mike [00:18:52]:

Well, you know, the design is never neutral.

katie [00:18:55]:

Yes.

Mike [00:18:55]:

It can either harm you or it can help you. You know, design can act. If it's designed correctly, design can act as an accelerant for good health. We need to start thinking about designing for health, not just for beauty. We need to start designing. Think of our industry as a health institute. The client can nest themselves, cradle themselves in an environment that actually was designed to improve the health of that client. It's pretty much a seismic shift compared to 20 years ago.

katie [00:19:26]:

Huge.

Mike [00:19:26]:

You know, we lower heart rate, we lower blood pressure. Let's internalize, take advantage of it and get. Start getting credit for it, for heaven's sake.

katie [00:19:34]:

Absolutely. I mean, to think about that, those levels of outputs, and now that it's actually quantifiable. Right. We've been able to quantify the impact. That is an absolutely huge, huge game changer. So once we start and we meet with our ideal client, it starts on our website, this vernacular, and it carries through to our proposal packet, our education throughout and along the way with the client. How do we wrap it up and how do we use it as a marketing tool on future projects? When it comes to this concept, do you feel that most designers who implement this, by the time they're done with their client, there's Such a profound understanding. They can't imagine doing something else.

katie [00:20:12]:

Or is it something that you have to build into your process throughout the way?

Mike [00:20:16]:

I think it's something you have to build into your process because the frequent reminder of why you're. You're using this color or you're building this hallway this way. There's something in Biophilia called modes of mystery. You know, what's around the corner. It's a basic design element. You know, what's behind the trees on the right as we would walk through the forest over the millions of years? You know, there's a sense of where's the unexpected, a sense of awe and wonder. So that's a design element that you want to include in your process and that needs to be explained to the client along the way. And in terms of marketing, I've already given you a couple of the headlines from websites.

Mike [00:20:52]:

These designers are including it in their Instagram posting, in LinkedIn, in their magazine advertising. So that's the marketing aspect. And again, the early adopters are out there ahead of the game. And 10 years from now, I pretty much suspect that this will become much more normal with most designers, because those who are last to get in will be wondering what happened over the last 10 years. You know, they'll still be selling timeless design. I hate that phrase. I mean, it's just so overused.

katie [00:21:25]:

Yeah, no, it's interesting. As you're talking, I'm thinking about, like, all the meandering pathways that you see and how much more exciting those are. Or even in city design, when they just put power lines below grade so you don't have to look at those and you can actually see the trees. Again, like all of these curiosity moments. What would you say to an interior designer? Obviously they need to go through a program. There's so many elements to this. And because it is so scientific and you can and should directly impact people's health, and that comes with a whole ethical component to it. But what would you say to someone listening to this conversation? Like, what are three elements that they can implement into their designs now? Integrating neuro aesthetics, biophilia, this concept, they can noticeably see the difference in their designs and what they can sell to their clients?

Mike [00:22:13]:

Well, I have to say up front that I'm not an interior designer, so I can give you the knowledge of what is important, and that is, I would certainly take on the world of biophilia. I would definitely include biophilic design in your approach because of all of the things that we've already talked about. It's beautiful because, remember, nature is the original beauty. You know, a hundred thousand years ago, it was only nature. It was the five points on a maple leaf. You know, it was the babbling brook. These are design elements that can be included in a home. Today, samples.

Mike [00:22:46]:

I would also start including fractal patterning.

katie [00:22:49]:

I love patterns. So now you're talking my language. Go down that path.

Mike [00:22:53]:

A lot of designers are using fractals, but they don't really know what a fractal is. Fractals are essentially geometric shapes and forms that are consistent in a pattern design, but they ascend or descend in scale. So a typical fractal would be something like a fern. You know, at the tip of the fern, you have one nodule. At the base of the fern, you have larger nodules and more of them. So that's essentially what a fractal is. And we now know that fractals are the basic building blocks of nature. There's a professor at the University of Oregon, Professor Richard Taylor.

Mike [00:23:26]:

He's one of my faculty members and he's going to be on my webinar in September, by the way.

katie [00:23:31]:

Nice.

Mike [00:23:32]:

Yes. But Richard is a world renowned specialist in fractal fluency. He considers fractals to be the fingerprint of nature. All throughout our bodies, fractals are like a tree canopy, where at the base of the limb, the limb is bigger, but at the end of the limb it's tiny. So that's fractal patterning.

katie [00:23:51]:

Well, that's your lungs.

Mike [00:23:53]:

Absolutely your lungs. You know, I have a slide I use in my presentations. It's a cutoff of the circulatory system and a tree canopy, and they look almost exactly the same.

katie [00:24:03]:

Amazing.

Mike [00:24:04]:

So we are walking fractals. That's why fractal patterning is so endemic, so natural to us, and it stimulates us. And the other thing is the sense of fluidity. There are no straight lines or right angles in nature. Everything has a sense of movement and fluidity. And so just as in our bodies, look at the lines in the palm of our hand. Those are fractal patterns.

katie [00:24:26]:

You don't know how bad I want to look down and look at my hand right now. You're right. That's fascinating.

Mike [00:24:33]:

I know.

katie [00:24:34]:

Maybe that's why palm reading is a thing.

Mike [00:24:36]:

Yeah.

katie [00:24:37]:

This may be a rudimentary question, but is it wrong to paint a door red? We don't see the reds that we see on paint decks in nature.

Mike [00:24:45]:

I think going back to what we talked about earlier, it depends on what effect you want to have on the client? Do you want to stimulate them? Do you want to calm them? Remember, the room is acting as an agent on our body. And so what would that red do? We're going to have a color specialist at When Design Heals event that I'm having at October market in High Point. And she's going to be talking about the health benefits of different colors.

katie [00:25:10]:

Yeah.

Mike [00:25:11]:

So you can paint it any color you want. What do you want to experience as a result of what you've done?

katie [00:25:17]:

When I became certified in color consultation through IACC North America, these were the exact conversations we were having. And one of the most riveting moments for me was, why do we paint nurseries yellow? Most yellows, that's the worst idea. It's so stimulating. The sun comes up, it's yellow, it's get up. But then we tell our babies to go to sleep in a yellow environment and it's like, no, no. And I mean, that's become more passe in the last couple decades. But it's just interesting to see that corresponding, even down to the most basic of elements, color. And like when you start looking at color, texture, patterning, all the things we talk about as designers and then understand the nature component, I feel like it's like taking a black and white TV and turning it to high def color.

katie [00:26:04]:

Because all of a sudden it all clicks. It all makes sense. It all becomes way more dimensional and it takes a basic toolkit and expands it into something where you can truly create as a creative. How have you seen their designs evolve? Because now they understand the implications of their designs.

Mike [00:26:22]:

You know, I was talking to a designer just two weeks ago who said that she is now beginning to use biophilic design in most of her projects. She has changed her approach because she now knows the healing properties of biophilic design. You're seeing it happen in so many cases now. And again. I want to repeat that these are the designers that are ahead of the game. They're offering something that is brand new and it's cutting edge in terms of the knowledge they're putting out and giving.

katie [00:26:48]:

Their clients, which is such a good market differentiator. Because then like we discussed, you can elevate your price, you can elevate your marketing, you can elevate yourself as a subject matter expert. There's so many valuable components and at the end of the day, you get to do better by your client. Which is what we all long to do. Right. Is give them not only something they love, but something that really dramatically improves their life. And you're saying, yeah, not only can you do that, you can actually dramatically improve their health.

Mike [00:27:16]:

Absolutely. We have to go back to what science says. We have to trust science. They think of us as an alternative health resource. And I don't know that I can say that phrase enough, because again, we need to internalize that. We need to become the alternative health resource and not just hear it from science. We need to be the alternative health resource and make sure our clients know it and change the nature of our industry. I wish we could get manufacturers to do the same thing.

Mike [00:27:43]:

Yes, you have a couple that are out there ahead of the game, like Philips Collection and Fazee Rug with all of their patterns and their fractal imagery. But you have a lot of companies out there that aren't aware of the science at all. And I would love to be able to present to a group of furniture manufacturers just to. Just to let them know that this science is out there and it would raise the value proposition of the entire industry if we could all join together. So that's the next big step. Designers first, and then I'll take on the manufacturers.

katie [00:28:17]:

I think that's a great order because if the designers who are doing the specifying, you know, squeaky wheel gets the grease, if they ask long enough and hard enough for it, it's going to happen. That's a beautiful request. I can't think of a better way to end this episode and that we just need to integrate it into our vocabulary. Get educated in it to know what you're doing because there's a huge ethical component to it, and then use it to go set yourself apart and do better by your business and your clients? I mean, I can't think of a better win.

Mike [00:28:42]:

Honestly, Mike, if we're ending this, can I just remind people that they should join my monthly webinars? Go to my website, scienceanddesign.com and if you're coming to High Point, even if you're not coming to High Point, join us on October 24th for a full day symposium called When Design Heals. How Interior Design Shapes Health. It's a lot of fun and a lot of good education and a lot of great networking. So I hope you'll join us.

katie [00:29:09]:

I love that. It's not if design heals, it's when design heals.

Mike [00:29:12]:

Oh, no. Oh. It's when design heels.

katie [00:29:14]:

Beautiful. Can't think of a better way. Thank you, Mike.

Mike [00:29:17]:

Thank you, Katie.

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Katie Decker-Erickson host of Success By Design Podcast

insightful conversations & super RELATABLE!

Excited for a podcast directed towards interior designers that covers the business and creative mindsets needed to run a successful firm. Throwing in life balance to every conversation makes this super relatable. Great conversations.

Colorful Conversations is like having a fun chat with your artsy friend who also knows how to create success! Katie's podcast is a must-listen for folks who love design and want to make money from their creative passions. She keeps you in the loop about the latest design trends while dropping priceless tips on turning your creativity into a successful business. Whether you're a design enthusiast or a budding entrepreneur, Katie's show is a goldmine of ideas and inspiration. So, tune in and get ready to blend style and success with her friendly and informative episodes – you won't want to miss it!

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insightful conversations & super RELATABLE!

Excited for a podcast directed towards interior designers that covers the business and creative mindsets needed to run a successful firm. Throwing in life balance to every conversation makes this super relatable. Great conversations.

Colorful Conversations is like having a fun chat with your artsy friend who also knows how to create success! Katie's podcast is a must-listen for folks who love design and want to make money from their creative passions. She keeps you in the loop about the latest design trends while dropping priceless tips on turning your creativity into a successful business. Whether you're a design enthusiast or a budding entrepreneur, Katie's show is a goldmine of ideas and inspiration. So, tune in and get ready to blend style and success with her friendly and informative episodes – you won't want to miss it!

Why Don't you leave us a Review too?

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